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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:26 pm 
paddler

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:54 pm
Posts: 5
Location: NorCal
KerryOnKayaks wrote:
Since the Quests have been discontinued (a real shame since they are super nice boats) I presume you are buying either a used one or one of the last demos the factory has?


New Quest 135's are still for sale at Amazon for the same price as the "Closeout Discount" listed on the Pakboat website. I had a bunch of Amazon gift cards, so for me it was a great deal. My Quest arrived yesterday and it does seem to be brand new.


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:09 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 616
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Ah that gleeful moment when you assemble a folding kayak for the first time on the lounge floor, that extra tube that goes....? (it's for the spraydesk), the smell of fresh polyuretane, the bagpipe-like wheezing of air entering the sponsons...

Let us know how it goes!

_________________
Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:08 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 281
I think Kerry's assessment is generally very accurate. I do want to respond to a couple points:

KerryOnKayaks wrote:
...
Inflating the sponson tubes by mouth is a real pain due to the fact that they didn't stagger them. Be sure you have the hand pump to do that. Don't inflate them completely if you are going to be transporting the kayak in hot weather or leaving it sit out of the water on a hot day. It's a bit of an annoyance to have to peel back the deck to access the valves to inflate them fully before paddling (which the boat definitely needs for best performance) but it can be done fairly quickly.
You need a set of inflatable flotation bags to fill in the voids under the deck for safe paddling in rough and/or deep water. I use a pair of Harmony brand bags.

I have the 155 model, so that probably contributes to my modestly different experiences.

I actually find it's best to have only moderate pressure in the air tubes, esp if I'm only carrying minimal gear. This is probably because I only weigh about 165 pds - well below the max payload. [I haven't found a definitive max payload weight, but it seems to be about 260 pds.] With only moderate pressure there's no danger of increasing temps and sun over-expanding and potentially rupturing the tubes. I've also found the tubes are airtight and maintain pressure well.

I have a 65 and 35 liter dry bag I use for longer trips that also supplement the air tubes. In tandem, they make the Quest virtually unsinkable :!: :D

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Pakboats Quest 155.

'I actually read the Bible quite frequently. Can I tell you why? I stay in a lot of hotels. And I like to scare my kids before bed.' Jon Stewart


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up tiime
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:58 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 616
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Interesting. This is all quite subjective of course.

What do you mean for example by 'moderate pressure'? What you can obtain by blowing with your mouth? And what do you mean by 'best'? Obviuosly the lower the pressure the less chance there is of rupture, and presumably the higher the (safe) pressure, the more efficient the kayak is

Then there's the fact that your 'hot day' could be my 'cold day' (and probably is unless you live in Florida)

Without a pressure guage and measurements of air, sea and earth temperatures it's so hard to quantify all this and come to universal conclusions. I for example keep my sponsons as highly inflated as I think is safe, deflate them a bit before coming ashore, and have yet to see one burst from over-inflation (unlike the time I left my Fujita in the Neapolitan sun for 5 minute). But precisely because I've never had one burst, I've no idea just how much pressure they cantake.

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:33 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 525
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
My direct experience with a ruptured sponson was with my Feathercraft Kahuna. In the Feathercrafts, the sponsons are removable vinyl tubes that slide into nylon sleeves inside the hull. I had inflated the tubes by mouth to be very full and taut and then hauled the boat on the roof rack and left it sitting ashore on a very hot day while we got a group trip organized and outfitted. I realized when I went to launch that one of the sponsons had gone flat. When I tried to inflate it nothing happened. Fortunately it was a short "lily-dipper" outing because the boat did not want to go straight, even when I partially deflated the other side. (that is one advantage PB's have over FC's -- with multiple sponsons you can balance the inflation if one blows out, as happened to my ex-boyfriend's XT-15 on our first outing with it -- incorrectly installed seat frame hardware punctured the middle tube on the port side.)

So I had to dismantle the Kahnua when I got home and turn the skin inside out (NOT an easy or pleasant operation) to withdraw the tube. When I got it out I saw that about 4" of one of the side seams had blown out. I ordered a replacement from FC (was close to $80 with shipping). In retrospect I probably could have patched it -- I gave the ruptured one to the guy I sold the Kahuna to, anyway, and suggested he patch it to have a spare.

I don't think it's easy to determine how much pressure would make such a blowout a potential problem -- as I said, I had inflated the sponson by mouth (since Feathercraft uses flexible tubes with twist lock inflation valves on the ends you really can't use a pump on them, but they are much more convenient for both inflation and deflation than the Pakboat valves embedded under the deck.) I'd rather be safe than sorry so I just wait until I am ready to launch to top the tubes off and release the valves before I load it.

Now there's a product I would like to see -- a manual bilge pump that can be converted to a sponson inflater.

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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:36 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 525
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
I'm in the midst of setting up the Quest out in my yard right now, taking photos at each step, as promised (will post link to a Flickr album later). Got the radio out on the porch and my local alternative station is playing a lot of the B-52's songs (one of the band members turns 65 today) -- so far it's good accompaniment for assembling a kayak.

_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up tiime
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:11 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 281
siravingmon wrote:
Interesting. This is all quite subjective of course.

What do you mean for example by 'moderate pressure'? What you can obtain by blowing with your mouth? And what do you mean by 'best'? Obviuosly the lower the pressure the less chance there is of rupture, and presumably the higher the (safe) pressure, the more efficient the kayak is.

It is somewhat subjective, yes. I've never had to inflate the tubes by mouth, and hopefully never will. In term of efficiency, there doesn't seem to be a significant difference in terms of moderate vs higher inflation pressure. The frame is still pretty rigid even with moderate inflation. The skin is noticeably tighter with higher inflation, but that doesn't seem to make a significant difference.

_________________
Pakboats Quest 155.

'I actually read the Bible quite frequently. Can I tell you why? I stay in a lot of hotels. And I like to scare my kids before bed.' Jon Stewart


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:28 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 525
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
OK, I got my photo album posted of assembly stages. Here's the link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/snapdoodle ... 944849781/

If you click on the first photo in the album it sets up a sequential slide show that you can page through with my descriptive comments below explaining each step. I fully expect that I have some errors in the procedure so I invite any other Quest owners to post their own comments or suggestions for revisions to the process. I mucked up a few of my shots so there are a few I wish I had been able to post that would have shown things like the bow deck support assembly better. But I figure if anyone is struggling with the lack of visual details with the instructions that Pakboat supplies a lot of my closeups could be helpful.


Apathizer: If you've paddled with the sponsons deflated, how have you kept the "floating chines" from wandering all over Creation? After having the danged things slide out of place horribly on my last trip out with it with no air in the tubes (it was a short outing and I didn't really have time to strip back the deck to blow them up) I've decided to use velcro straps to lock the chines to the seat crossbars to try to keep them in place. Displaced chine tubes really affect the performance badly.

_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:54 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 616
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Quote:
Displaced chine tubes really affect the performance badly.
I'd agree with that based on the one time I had a deflated sponson on the return leg of an outing

Great assembly pics by the way, and they reminded me of the importance of having the deck support cross tube falling forward rather than back during assembly - it's so much easier to swing the cross tube up and back rather than up and forward to lock into the 2 deck bars. Obvious but a PITA if you forget it

_________________
Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:28 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 525
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Next time I dismantle the boat I plan to do what I have with my Feathercrafts: mark the frame parts using "industrial grade" Sharpie marking pen or an electrical marking tape wrap to make it easier to get them oriented quickly and properly. Stripes around the gunwale tubes at the "plug" ends, alignment lines on the keel bar (I already drew arrows on the seat support frame segments to get them clipped in right the first time.)

As with all my folders (except the horrid 1996 Feathercraft K-1 Expedition), IF you get all the parts put in the right way in the right order, you can generally set up a boat in 30 minutes -- I even got the Kahuna down to nearly 20 minutes after a while (could have done that assembly in my sleep, I did it so often). The lag in set up is usually due (at least in my case) to the "oh cr@p" moments wherein I realize a rib is in backwards or I've eagerly begun installing ribs before the keel bar is connected at both ends (as I actually did yesterday while in my cinematographer mode.)

I did manage to break my first rubber band yesterday -- the one at the Q3 to keel connector. I wrapped a velcro tie around the juncture for the time being. I imagine I could make one or more bands by slicing up a bicycle tire tube. Haven't checked the repair kit that came with the boat -- maybe there are spares?

Heading out in about 15 minutes to do a day paddle with a friend on a really nice 3,200 acre lake about 40 minutes north of me. Gorgeous day -- mid 70's, slight breeze, sunny with puffy clouds and no rain in sight. As it's a holiday weekend there will be a lot of folks out but there are a lot of shallow inlets that don't allow power boats and there is a 20 hp motor limit on craft so it tends to be pretty pleasant for kayaking and canoeing.

_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:37 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 281
KerryOnKayaks wrote:
Apathizer: If you've paddled with the sponsons deflated, how have you kept the "floating chines" from wandering all over Creation? After having the danged things slide out of place horribly on my last trip out with it with no air in the tubes (it was a short outing and I didn't really have time to strip back the deck to blow them up) I've decided to use velcro straps to lock the chines to the seat crossbars to try to keep them in place. Displaced chine tubes really affect the performance badly.

I've never paddled with them completely deflated, and have never had problems with wandering floating chines. I'm still baffled at many of the issues you're having. I haven't needed to make any modifications at all and my Quest works just fine.

_________________
Pakboats Quest 155.

'I actually read the Bible quite frequently. Can I tell you why? I stay in a lot of hotels. And I like to scare my kids before bed.' Jon Stewart


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:17 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 525
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Maybe my Quest (which they described as a "trade show demo") was an early beta version and some of the issues were addressed by the time your 155 was manufactured.

I took it out for a 7 hour paddle today and the only problem was with the foot pegs occasionally slipping loose in the tracks (kind of a pain since I paddle with a spray skirt to keep the runoff from my GP from flooding my lap.) Have to figure out a way to avoid that.

Lashing the chine bars to the seat frame does keep them perfectly in place, by the way. I do notice that if I don't shove a flotation bag under the stern deck to lift it up a bit a lot of water pools on the surface. I do think I may replace the seat back with a smaller back band, maybe a Snapdragon. I am short waisted and it is a little too wide top to bottom and the lower edge binding cuts into my hips after a while.

I am gradually getting the various quirks dialed in with it. Enjoyed paddling it very much today. I do think it is a nice boat but perhaps I have been spoiled by owning 3 Feathercrafts, with which everything fits together very snugly and functions without fiddling. But then those boats cost 4 times as much. Performance wise, the Quest is very comparable to my FC Wisper so far. But if I had to spend much more than 6 or 7 hours in a kayak, I think I would prefer the Wisper.

_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:23 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 616
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Apathizer wrote:
...I haven't needed to make any modifications at all and my Quest works just fine.
The only modifications I've made are to lower the early model seat (fixed on later models), replace the fixed backrest with a sliding back band from Snapdragon for easier torso rotation (as I've done with all my other kayaks), and fit sliding zip ties where the bow tubes attach to the gunwales (they once came undone with the twist caused by a sail and occasionally popped out during assembly before this fix)

KerryOnKayaks wrote:
Lashing the chine bars to the seat frame does keep them perfectly in place, by the way.
I've had mine in some fairly stressful situations, including rolling it in surf, and I've never seen the chine bars move out of place. I did once position them too low during assembly, leading to reduced stability.

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:57 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 281
KerryOnKayaks wrote:
...
I am gradually getting the various quirks dialed in with it. Enjoyed paddling it very much today. I do think it is a nice boat but perhaps I have been spoiled by owning 3 Feathercrafts, with which everything fits together very snugly and functions without fiddling. But then those boats cost 4 times as much. Performance wise, the Quest is very comparable to my FC Wisper so far. But if I had to spend much more than 6 or 7 hours in a kayak, I think I would prefer the Wisper.

If price is no object, then yes the Wisper is better. Then again, I think the Trak Seeker is about as good as the Wisper for about $1K less.

But even if I could afford it (that is without saving up for several months) it's very difficult for me to justify spending $4K on a yak. For about $5K I could get both a decent used car and a good used hardshell yak, so spending $4K on a kayak is very difficult to justify.

I'm curious: How many paddlers regularly spend more than 6-7 hrs/day kayaking? While I enjoy multi-day trips, I seldom paddle more than 5 hrs on any given day, and usually only about 4 hrs.

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Pakboats Quest 155.

'I actually read the Bible quite frequently. Can I tell you why? I stay in a lot of hotels. And I like to scare my kids before bed.' Jon Stewart


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 Post subject: Re: PakBoat set up time
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:32 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 525
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Actually, I got the Wisper used for $2200. I rarely buy new or pay full price for kayaks

As to looking for long term comfort, I regularly do 6 to 8 hour day paddles and, now that I'm retired, plan to do multi-day overnight wilderness trips camping out of the kayak. Also want to be able to take one or two folders on trips overseas. So boats being comfortable for long durations and having trustworthy structure are important for that.

_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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