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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:41 am 
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I just picked up my new Quest - Thanks Steve for all your help, and Kerry for your Puffin deck (for my other boat).

I'm taking this baby and my Puffin to England for a 5 week tour of the inland waterways. Weeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I'm concerned about weight and bulk, especially for this trip, and looking for opportunities to refine both, but of course without compromising too much.

1) The aluminum rods that run the length of the boat placed between the first and second inflated tube - they weigh 1 1/2 pounds each. When I assemble the boat in my living room I don't see much difference, but of course I don't know what the change in impact is when in water.

2) The seat weighs 2 lbs. I imagine it is more comfortable than a inflated seat, but I am use to that with my Puffin. Other than comfort is their any structural concern with using a small inflated pad? FYI I still have to deal with adapting the seat as this is an earlier model.

3) The poles that are attached to the deck and used to elevate the deck in the front - they weight 1 lb. - other than a bit of a pool collecting in front of me from rain or splash, is there any other issue?

4) The awkward-to-fold aluminum frame for the seat opening - it weights 1 lb. - I was thinking of replacing it with a swimming pool noodle or similar. Maybe something thicker would improve the protection from spill from a lowered deck. Thoughts?

5) Inflation of the inflatable tubes - will inflation by mouth (saving the need for the pump) take much away from the way the kayak works, and especially in concert with possibly doing without the aluminum poles that run parallel?
Thanks,
Geoff, Hamilton, Ontario


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:50 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 606
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Congratulations on your new Quest 135! I didn’t realise they were still available. Perhaps Alv will get back to you on this, but here are my thoughts

1) The aluminium stringer rods between the first and second inflated tube are what give the boat rigidity – I think this would be important even on calm water , especially with a loaded kayak

2) You could do with just a foam pad seat directly onto the hull – I did for a while, but this will put extra strain on the lightweight hull material (which is not designed to take this point load), This will be more critical with a fully loaded kayak, so you’d do so at your own risk.

3) / 4) Why don’t you just leave the whole deck behind, including deck ridge poles and cockpit rim frame? I imagine you’ll be packing everything in dry bags any way, and you could pick up a bailer scoop or sponge for the rain when you’re there. You’ll just need to improvise a way of attaching the back rest to the hull, like I did – it’s not difficult. Be careful not to overinflate the tubes if you do this as they’ll be directly exposed to sunlight and could burst.

5) Inflation of the inflatable tubes needs a pump – you can’t get adequate pressure by mouth, but you may find a smaller, lighter plastic foot pump – it’ll just take longer to inflate the tubes

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:37 am 
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Thank you Simon, this is great feed back.

I bought this boat used (from Steve)- found it on this forum , and she is in very good shape.

Many of my questions are based on comparisons to my other Pakboat - a 12' Puffin Sacco that I have had for 3 years now. The Puffin and I have been on many long 5-15 day camping trips into Canadian Shield wilderness and along the Trente-Severne and Rideau canal systems. My Puffin doesn't need stringer rods. In fact it is not all that rigid. Although it takes longer to fill its much larger inflatable tubes, it never seemed much of an issue how full they were, or even if I needed the top one filled (the Toronto dealer suggested it was not necessary). The Puffin is a bit of a freighter, and I expect the Quest will fly through the water in comparison, but I'd sacrifice a bit of that for a lighter boat. The Puffin seat is inflated and sits directly on the floor. It has a back rest support built into one of the cross braces, but no frame on the floor other than the keel pole(same as the Quest). Not having had the Quest in the water yet, I am concerned about the back support. I sat in it in my living room, with the official seat and with an inflated pad, and it doesn't feel all that comfortable.

Why doesn't the Puffin need the stringer rods, the high pressure tubes and the suspended seat?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:00 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 606
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
geoffrose wrote:

Why doesn't the Puffin need the stringer rods, the high pressure tubes and the suspended seat?


I don't know the Puffin but at a guess I'd say it doesn't need stringer rods because it's shorter and I suspect less stiff. Also, check the tubes - are they bigger and so more rigid on the Puffin? As for the seat, I find the 135 seat very comfortable but I did modify mine to make it lower so less flat. Compare the hull material on the Puffin and 135 too - I suspect the Puffin hull material is thicker / heavier. The Quest is very lightweight for its 13'9"

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:44 am 
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My Puffin Sacco is definitely less stiff. It is also very light - only 20lb. without the deck, so I suspect the hull material is a very similar strength. I have no engineering knowledge, so I could be completely off base, but I would think the fact that the Puffin is wider and flatter would make it more vulnerable to pressure on the hull from sitting on the bottom with no support from the cross braces. It makes sense to me that if the overall body is stiff, the boat would move more efficiently in the water, but otherwise I don't understand how the extra stiffness is needed on the Quest. All that being said, I certainly don't want to do damage to my beautiful new boat or for it to be unstable. I only hoped to sacrifice a bit of efficiency for reduced bulk and weight.

It would be great if Alv also gets a chance to weigh in on this.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:02 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
I've been reading Alv (of Pakboat)'s description of the re-engineered Quest line, the 150 model. They have eliminated the sponson "support" floating stiffening rods by increasing the diameter of the sponson tubes (making them similar to the chubby ones in the Puffins). They also revised the attachment for the backband so that the boat can be used without the deck and also removed the deck support assembly.

So they have done some of the things that you are considering. I think you could leave the deck support assembly out. If you found that the deck sagged, you could probably find a hardware store in the UK and buy some 1/2" PVC or CPVC piping, which is easily cut, to rig a support structure. Since the sponson support tubes are just floaters, lengths of PVC pipe would also add some rigidity in the same way the stock aluminum tubes do. I might do that myself. I have a bunch of 1/2" PVC here at the house so I will see how that works.

I would hesitate to leave behind the deck and the cockpit coaming frame. You are apt to be paddling in rain at some point almost any day in the UK and I suspect you would miss having a deck and even a sprayskirt.

When are you going to be in the UK? I'm going there myself from May 7 to May 17 , have rented a cottage in Malton in the Yorkshire Dales and am bringing along my Quest 135 to explore rivers and canals in the area. Flying into Manchester and reserved a Citroen C4 Cactus station wagon to haul the set up boat on. If your time there overlaps maybe we could meet for an outing. I don't know yet if I'm going solo or will have a friend along for all or part of the trip. I tend to make plans and then see who wants to join me.

I bought a rolling sports duffel that the entire Quest fits in with space left over to pack my PFD, a 4 piece paddle, float bags, bilge pump, skirt, and my dry pants, dry top and Kokatat booties. This bag comes in under the 50 pound limit for the free first checked bag on Icelandair. Combined length + width + height of the bag is 32" + 16" + 14" which just meets their 62" maximum. For reference, the carton that Pakboat ships the bagged Quest 135 in is 30" x 16" x 11" -- I have that carton sitting in my living room at the moment since I reused it to pack half the parts of the Pakboat XT-15 that I am shipping to its new owner tomorrow. MInus the duffel bag that the boat comes in, you can see that there is quite a bit of volume for gear in a duffel the size that I have even once you have the boat parts in it.

Did the yellow Puffin deck I sent along fit your boat?

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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:15 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Forgot to mention, you can't get enough pressure in the tubes through mouth inflation. I have this straight from the horse's mouth (Alv) and I believe him. This is why they switched to them from the the long tubes with the mouth valves years ago. The pump is light and you really do need it. Not optional.

By the way, if you have not yet booked your air, the Icelandair flights are not only very cheap (mine was $661 RT) but they have a tourism deal where you can layover In Iceland for 1 to 7 days coming or going via Reykjavik for no added cost. I am thinking of spending a few days there on my way back and renting a little equipped camper van to explore a little of the country before heading back home.

_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:36 pm
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Hi Kerry,

Haven't had time to assemble the Puffin yet. I will report. Thanks again.

We land bright and early May 15. For now, figuring on entering water on the Regent Canal in central London, north of Paddington Station, so Little Venice will be our first sight. However, if you have an idea how we can meet up, we are all ears.

Quest questions.

So what happens if the tubes are not inflated hard enough (and how hard is that - how can you tell)?
And what happens if I do without the stiffening rods, if I only have the current tubes - and worse yet, if they are not hard enough?
Any thought on the seat - i.e. how problematic it would be to use an inflated seat directly on the floor? And if it is a bad idea, why isn't it also a bad idea for my Puffin Sacco?

I have no plans to do away with the deck. I like decks, and the protection and streamlining they offer - that's why I wanted yours, as it will likely be an improvement on my home made one. I don't see any issue with dropping the framing that elevates the deck. I will make a simple tarp cover (that slides onto me kinda spray skirtish) that attaches with a few bits of velcro. I was perfectly dry after many hours of downpour on previous trips with my Puffin so equipped- and it weighs a few ounces.

Your duffel sounds peachy, and you sound impressively organized. I measured the bag that came with the Quest, and it is also not too big to go as regular baggage. I also hope to stuff other things into it, and especially if I can take a few less parts. That's good new that you sold the XT-15

FYI - Thursday is the REEL Canoe Festival here, and I will be displaying the Quest before show and at intermission. See if I can drum up some more business for Pakboats, and start a club!

We paid the equivalent of US $665 for our tickets from West Jet: Toronto - London, then London to St. Johns NFLD and then Gander NFLD to Hamilton. A three point series of flights that includes 2 1/2 weeks in NFLD where we plan to hike the Twillingate coast (We'll mail home our boats from St. Johns and pick up our backpacks from there. - brief video gives you an idea of the kind of land around Twillingate, though it doesn't show the whales and icebergs we expect to see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZquk6U6CUI

And for extra entertainment -
Here is a link to a blog of a canoe trip from Manchester to London - my style
http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/ ... ng+odyssey

This forum is wonderful, as are the people that populate it. Here is a link to my conversations with all the friendly English. I expect to travel with a few, drink with a few, maybe even stay with a few.
http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/ ... to=newpost


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:45 pm 
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Kerry, couple more goodies.

This is an amazing planning website - you can get every detail between any two points on any canal.
http://www.waterexplorer.co.uk/gmaps/in ... almap.aspx

And yet another:
http://paddlepoints.net/


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:26 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Posts: 491
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
I've exchanged information with so many people over the past couple of months, on Pakboats and the trip, that I totally forgot that we had already swapped travel plans and determined that the time overlap was too small. I leave from Manchester on 5/17 so it won't be practical to connect for that one day before with my being 250 miles from London.

Thanks for the links -- I've been finding nice information on line about recreational options in Britain. Located a wonderful hiking guide to Yorkshire complete with maps, photos, ratings on difficulty and detailed descriptions. The locals really are great about sharing that kind of thing.

On the boat rigidity, if you are mostly going to be in canals and low flow rivers, and since you will be with a partner in a more sluggish Puffin and therefore not needing the extra speed that stiffness facilitates, I doubt higher inflation will be a huge issue. But really, I find the pump (which weighs so little) fits easily within the gaps created by nesting the frame parts. You could also probably find a cheap hand pump at a sporting good store when you get to the UK. The pump really allows a huge pressure increase, far more than you could manage by mouth. Mouth inflation on those flush valves, placed so low inside the hull, is really difficult -- I've done it once when I forgot the pump, and it was awkward and a real time waster. Have you tried it yet? Pump is SO much handier.

One thing I recommend with the Quest is carrying a 2' x 3' square of closed cell foam (I use standard 1/2" Ensolite but a piece of yoga mat works too) that I place under my legs between the seat and foot pegs, wrapping the long way up the sides. Keeps the frame from rubbing your legs. And the square is useful for kneeling on while setting up the kayak, even once it is set up and you have to peel back the deck to relieve or boost the sponson inflation. Handy for sitting on in camp as well. I load on top of the packed rollaway bag before I zip it up to offer some cushioning protection to the stuff inside. I also added a few velcro tie wraps and some short plastic cable ties to my repair kit -- if you get a wonky connector that won't hold you can bind it in place temporarily until you have a chance to rework it.

_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:36 pm
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Thanks for these ideas.

Do you think I will do damage to my Quest if I do without the seat or the stiffening rods?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:15 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 606
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Yes, on the assumtion you'll be travelling with a fully laden kayak (that's designed to support such loads with a suspended seat and stiffening rods)

PS Kerry, I use a very thin mat too but as a heel rest

_________________
Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:11 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 491
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
My ensolite pad reaches all the way to the foot pegs so it also functions as a heel rest.

_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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