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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:43 pm 
bwb wrote:
Because of the good hull performance and speed of the Ladoga-1, people with mechanical skills might be tempted to modify it to remedy some of its weak points. Ralph Hoehn once contemplated performing shock therapy to the frame (installing shock cord to speed assembly and eliminate the tricky brass buttons in the joints). I've wondered about having better plastic couplings fabricated by a CAD/CAM machine shop; this might not be very expensive, but I lack the necessary skill. I did get an inflatable Puffin seat to replace the absolutely awful primitive wooden original seat.


This didn't seem a rewarding job to me; too much to modify. Shock-cords would be nice, but if you look at Feathercrafts, - this needs smaller diameter inserts in tubes (2 per each joint), and tubes are metric (probably - don't remenber now). Colour-coding also helps - some dealers did this, since factory didn't. Fabricating plastic fittings - yes, but they need to be re-designed first - it's not just fragile plastic, but also insufficient bulk of it, and you can't add thickenss, for example, under the keelsen tube. Almost every time I had problems pulling the bow frame half out of the skin (some other users also reported this problem). Lubricating didn't help much, and eventually bow plastic fittiings were broken and I had to reinforce them with fiberglass fabric. I am not convinced that stiffness of the frame can compensate for all the drawbacks and weak spots of this model, comparing it, say, to Feathercraft K1 or Kahuna, which are about the same rigid and fast, but quality and convenience of use is much higher. Or, for those who are willing to accept some frame flex, - Folbot Cooper cold be a better substitute, it costs about the same in the USA and is made much more reliably.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:09 pm 
Any boat design entails tradeoffs. The drawback of the Feathercrafts you mention is high cost, and slow assembly of some models. The Folbot Cooper is extremely attractive: fast, easy to assemble, and low-priced. However, I doubt that its skin is as tough as that of the Ladoga, with its stout rub strips. Also, the Ladoga is the only one of these with a removable deck, which can be nice in fair weather or when fishing or photographing. The upswept bow may have some disadvantages, but it keeps the boat from submarining into waves the way many kayaks do.

The newer Ladogas have aluminum bow & stern couplings where the old ones had plastic. Also, the plastic couplings are a different material, which I haven't seen. If it is somewhat rubbery and springy like that used by Pakboats, that would be a great improvement.

Some people enjoy tinkering and customizing things, and have remarkable mechanical skills. Such people might enjoy improving the Ladoga.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 6:45 pm 
I knew you would mention the skin ;-)... Without actually seeing any Cooper, just knowing what kind of design and reliability one can expect from this company, and what degree of strength one can expect from such skin - quite possible that Ladoga's skin is stronger than Cooper's even in un-protected areas. It's very, very abrasion-resistant. But - there is always some "but" with Ladoga :-) - those narrow keelstrips on Ladoga often don't work properly, albeit being very solid, almost plastic. They are too narrow at stringers, and frame has to be centered very carefully to align those strips with stringers - which often means pulling almost assebmled frame out of the skin and re-inserting it again.

Cooper (same as all other Folbots) doesn't have any protection strips, but you can easily add them for $45, and they are wider (as I recall) than L-1 stringer strips (may be not wider than L-1 keel strip).

F-craft Kahuna has all the required hull strips, and with good sprayskirt and seasock costs about $500 more than L-1 in the USA - new from the factory. Optional bells and wistles like hatches and rudder (very good, btw) add another $200-300 to Kahuna cost. I think it is same fast as L-1, or very close. Lower wind resistance and less rocker than in L-1, which results in a better tracking. Just better sea kayak, that's it.

Yes, Velcro-attached deck of L-1 provides very good access to cargo, but :-) this velcro is not too reliable (applied stress by cargo beneath and waves above is vertical, not shear); deck bungey cords are attached to this detachable deck (probably to get rid of unnecessary items like pump, deck bag etc), and grommets on this deck corroded after few weeks in sea water.

PS: for people who are more interested in fishing and photography, there is a Folbot Edisto with same removable deck as in L-1. It is shorter, wider, slower and more stabile than L-1. They raised the price recently - around $1700, plus some options (either full deck, or half-deck), less free shipping.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 9:13 pm 
Regarding the cost differences. based on the MSRP, the Feathercraft Kahuna is actually around $700 more then the Ladoga -1.


Regarding for people who are more interested in photography and fishing, there is the Triton Ilmen, which has the same MSRP as the Folbot Edisto (although for the same price it comes with the skirt and spraydeck) but it is about 4 feet more in length and has about twice the maximum payload of the Folbot (meaning up to three people can be in it). Although it weights about 10 more pounds.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 9:36 pm 
The above post was by me, I forgot to log in.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:25 pm 
Found an ad for a purportedly ex-Russian Army 3 seater: Green, 17ft long, alloy frame packs into 2 bags. Can anyone tell me what this is likely to be, and whether it's any good? Also what an equivalent new one would cost?
(Thanks for the site - enormously useful!)
John, London


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:00 pm 
John, have you read teh Russian Boats page on this website http://foldingkayaks.org/russianboats.shtml ?

What it the skin material? If it is canvas and rubber (hypalon), it could be Taymen 3. If it is PVC, it could also be Taymen 3 with new PVC skin (not very likely, though), or, more likely, it could be one of Triton models. Here is Triton manufacturer's site, I assume that all Triton models are listed there: http://www.boats.spb.ru/catalog.phtml?dir=8 . Looks like there is only one 3-seater by Triton: photo is poor, but I don't see distinctive high "rails" or "washboards" (coaming around the cockpit), peculiar to Taymen models.

Old Taymen isn't worth more than 700 Euro, I think (considering similar american GII or german Klepper AE2 within this price range, used). Unless, of course, yoy need exaclty a 3-seater. And it is barely worth anything, if skin is in poor condiiton and can't be repaired - the cost of new skin is about 70% of the cost of a new boat, in any folding kayak.


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 Post subject: 17' russian folder
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:46 am 
Thanks Alm, yes I read the page on Russians, I think it probably is a Taymen. The seller says it's 'green canvas'. He seems to think it's rare, but I think he is optimistic in his pricing - he wants about 1000 euros.
If a Triton Svir really costs US$350 it would be way cheaper for me to fly to St Petersberg and buy one myself!


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 Post subject: Re: 17' russian folder
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:44 pm 
With canvas it must be a Taymen3. If you saw the picture of Taymen 3 in the link above - it is huge. I think, it doesn't have sponsons - but same is true for older Klepper models.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:06 am 
1000 Euros for a used Taimen 3 is a bit much, considering our MSRP for a new Neva 3 (which is a similar more modern boat) is $1850. If youre looking for Taimen 3 I would say that 500 Euros should probably be the price cap.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:29 pm 
Yevgeniy wrote:
our MSRP for a new Neva 3 (which is a similar more modern boat) is $1850.

Thanks Yevgeniy, I may just try to find a Triton importer who can supply to the UK. The Ladoga 2 looks like good value.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:53 am 
Topic seems to have strayed a little in the Other Boats forum, but there are some views on the Ladoga there:

http://foldingkayaks.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=43


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:37 pm 
John, London wrote:
Topic seems to have strayed a little in the Other Boats forum, but there are some views on the Ladoga there:

http://foldingkayaks.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=43



Yeah, yeah... my grumbling mostly - I confess :-) .... Note, that the model discussed was a single kayak Ladoga1, not a double kayak Ladoga2. There is also a link to German dealer in that thread, btw.


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 Post subject: Ladoga1 & 2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:20 am 
Does this mean the Ladoga2 is still worth considering? I'm looking into getting an old E German model to see how I get on with it before I spend thousands on a nice new one.
But I may be able to get a Triton from Russia, for a good price. Any views on Ladoga2 versus Vuoksa2?


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 Post subject: PS
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:23 am 
I definitely need to be able to dismantle the kayak!


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