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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:48 am 
mje wrote:
The aluminum Klepper parts will deform under any sort of stress- I carry a multitool when I take a Klepper out to deal with the occasional but inevitible bent fitting. They can be bent back, but the deformation weakens them. I can't imagine any conceivable load under normal circumstances that would deform one of the stainless parts on the LH boats.

Two stainless parts of LH immediately come to my mind: those horns on the aft cockpit rib, and plates with slots for gunwales on the bow piece. Both deform (bend) after a day or two under normal cicrumstances - at least, I don't do anything but paddling, in moderate weather, without surf landings. Deformation visible enough to notice it. It is reversible (can be bent back), and I would agree that in steel the deformation of that extent doesn't weaken the metal.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:04 pm 
Thankyou for your review of the Wayland Menedem. I've just Recieved my Harpoon 1 and am very pleased with my Kayak.Your review and pictures helped me decide to buy a Wayland. I couldn't justify the expense of one of the premium folders but at £700 for a Wayland the price was right for me.I purchased the sail kit and spray deck as extras, with shipping to the UK this pushed the price up to £920.
I had her out on the water today and had a wonderful time.I concur with everything in your report although I feel that the advertised weight of 23kg is wrong, feels between 30/40kg to me when assembled.

Many thanks,
David.


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 Post subject: Buying a Harpoon
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:26 am 
Ditto, seems like Menedem has made an impact with his detailed review - as I am close to ordering a Harpoon myself, after reading it. Certainly seems to be a lot of boat for the money. David did you pay 700 Euros for a Harpoon Expedition? I assume this price is ex VAT.

If you don't mind, please share your thoughts on your new boat - you certainly seem very pleased - how if feels to paddle, quality of the different parts etc.

Cheers,

/Alex (VIC- Australia)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:38 pm 
David wrote:
I concur with everything in your report although I feel that the advertised weight of 23kg is wrong, feels between 30/40kg to me when assembled.


Wooden frames and hypalon hulls are heavy. Aluminum-frame boats tend to be lighter, but miracles don't happen - 15 ft expedition boat can't be very light. Every time when I hear of something very light and longer than 14-15 ft, I either find that something isn't included, or something is unreliably made in skin or frame. Harpoon is closely modeled after Klepper AE1 Expedition, and it doesn't look like having less wood in frame. When I was deciding on Longhaul MK1 (with advertised weight being same mistery as with any other brand), I gathered some feedback form Klepper users and dealers. AE1 Exp weighs 32 kg (70 lbs) - and I am not sure that this includes all the accessories, or bags. Klepper website lists AE1 Exp as 29 kg (65 lbs), which is apparently without bags, and very likely without some accessories like skirt or seat. More than 23 kg, anyway.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:13 pm 
David wrote:
Thankyou for your review of the Wayland Menedem. I've just Recieved my Harpoon 1 and am very pleased with my Kayak.
...
I had her out on the water today and had a wonderful time.I concur with everything in your report although I feel that the advertised weight of 23kg is wrong, feels between 30/40kg to me when assembled.

Many thanks,
David.


You are very welcome. I am very glad you like your new kayak!

Harpoon is a good boat, I have been using mine almost every thunderstorm-less weekend since I bought it, and I am very happy with it.

It has been acknowledged here many times that it is a universal mystery as to how kayak manufacturers weigh their boats :roll: . Assembled and ready to paddle, mine easily pushes close to 60-65 pounds. For me though, the weight is comfortable enough to carry the boat 10-20 yards to the water on a level landing. Beyond that, or in a more difficult terrain, I use a cart.

Dmitry.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:16 am 
Solar,
I bought the kayak off of Wayland on Ebay UK, the price was 700 GB pounds VAT inclusive, with the extra's of sail kit ,spray deck and shipping the price that I paid was 921 GB pounds, I had to pay an additional charge of 20 GB pounds to my Bank for the money transfer which took 5 days to go through, I recieved my kayak 10 days after that. I'm pleased with the quality of workmanship and the materials used although I would prefer stronger zippers, Menedem damaged the after hatch zipper and I damaged one of the carrying bag zippers,it was my own fault trying to overfill the bag and using the zipper to force the bag to close.
I'm a novice paddler so I cant really give details on performance, for me with the rudder down she goes in a straight line and moves through the water well with little effort and is very stable.

Hope this helps,
David.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:23 pm 
David wrote:
I would prefer stronger zippers, Menedem damaged the after hatch zipper and I damaged one of the carrying bag zippers,it was my own fault trying to overfill the bag and using the zipper to force the bag to close.


No, it was a designer's fault - not your fault. But at that price this is acceptable. To fit all the parts into one bag (if the factory supplies only one) isn't a good solution. Wooden frames are bulky, and same are hypalon hulls, and other brands like Klepper or Longhaul supply 2 or 3 bags for the similar model.
Good bag should be slightly larger than required for its designated content, - to accomodate other accessories. You can always make it smaller by tightening cinch-straps around the bag and inside the bag (and it should have such straps).

Deck zippers on the boat is an unreliable solution, but zippers of extra-large caliber can withstand some mistakes of a user, like forgetting to deflate the sponsons.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:12 pm 
David wrote:
Solar,
I'm pleased with the quality of workmanship and the materials used although I would prefer stronger zippers, Menedem damaged the after hatch zipper and I damaged one of the carrying bag zippers,it was my own fault trying to overfill the bag and using the zipper to force the bag to close.

Hope this helps,
David.


David,

You should definitely report this issue to the company. It appears that the choice of zippers is one of the weak points, both for the bag and for the rear hatch. The more they hear from end-users, the likely it is that they make a change.

I have separated mine into two bags, one for wooden parts, the other one for the hull. A 42 inch nylon duffel will hold all the parts with the exception of the washboard assembly, which is too long. The washboard, ribs and the hull are the parts that stayed in the original bag. I have also added a smaller round sack for the ribs, so that they stay together, for convenience.

Dmitry.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:34 pm 
Alm wrote:
No, it was a designer's fault - not your fault.


I tend to agree.

Alm wrote:
But at that price this is acceptable.


This may be agreeable, but questionable.

Wayland makes a good boat at a very attractive price. Throughout, the quality is good, and there is a lot of attention paid to details.

I've paddled the boat today in the rain for three and a half hours, and not a drop of water got it. When I laid the skin out to dry, I noticed that all the seams where deck met the hull were glued in addition to being stitched. That tells me that the product quality is good, they just picked a wrong source for the zipper, or undersized it. Harpoon does not have many zippers, I do not think that using a larger, brand-name variety would have changed the price dramatically.

Alm wrote:
Deck zippers on the boat is an unreliable solution, but zippers of extra-large caliber can withstand some mistakes of a user, like forgetting to deflate the sponsons.


Yes, they should.

Dmitry.


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 Post subject: re: Wayland Harpoon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:48 am 
Thanks for all the info and help so far guys ! Got my tax return today 8-)...so I'll definately order in the next few days.

I emailed Wayland regarding some questions I had, and got an answer back in just a couple of hours. They informed me that the rear hatch zipper problem had been solved, and that it had indeed been a quality issue (supplier).

I also inquired if they could make the hull without the Axe and Shovel pockets at the front of the deck, with the answer that they can make the skin without any of the extras as long as I specify this when ordering.

So I now face the dilemma of changing the standard deck configuration or or leaving it 'as is'. Menedem has already advised me to consider getting a skin without the rear hatch, and in addition I am not sure how much I will be using the axe and shovel pockets at the front end of the boat.

Does the extra stitches (for each pocket) affect the waterproofing of the deck?.......Menedem did indicate that the kayak stays pretty dry inside, soo maybe I am just getting a bit silly......

Anyway, I look forward to joining David and Menedem as a Harpoon owner in the near future.
Cheers,
/alex


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 Post subject: Re: re: Wayland Harpoon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:46 am 
Solar wrote:
I emailed Wayland regarding some questions I had, and got an answer back in just a couple of hours. They informed me that the rear hatch zipper problem had been solved, and that it had indeed been a quality issue (supplier).


Good to hear that.

Solar wrote:
I also inquired if they could make the hull without the Axe and Shovel pockets at the front of the deck, with the answer that they can make the skin without any of the extras as long as I specify this when ordering.


These make for a great conversation piece. However, unless you're somewhere out in complete boonies, the presence of items like an axe on deck in plain sight can be misconstrued :evil: by the general public. Then again, this may be one of those fine cultural distinctions from Down Under. 8-)

My guess is, unless an axe and a shovel are your mandatory paddling attributes, they can be omitted.

Solar wrote:
Does the extra stitches (for each pocket) affect the waterproofing of the deck?.......Menedem did indicate that the kayak stays pretty dry inside, soo maybe I am just getting a bit silly......


Sometimes extra stitching and pieces of material are used as a form of reinforcement. I do not know the specifics of Harpoon's deck construction, you'd have to ask Wayland about it.

In waves, rear hatch is probably the easiest point where the water can get it. Leaving it out redices this risk.

Stitching is less of a problem if stitches are properly sealed or taped. Periodic seam resealing is more or less a routine maintenance item, at least with tents, I do not know yet whether this will be necessary with the kayak.

Of all the things on the deck, here's what I've used at different times:
    o deck line, to secure the bilge pump
    o rear deck back, for water pack and misc. things
    o rubber loops on deck with paddle pockets, to hold the extra paddle
    o d-rings, for front deck bag and paddle leash
    o bottle holders, for, well, water bottles
    o front cockpit storage bags, for misc. things, when I am not carrying
    the extra paddle (paddle shaft lays over the bag flaps)

With all the extra pockets and bottle holders, sometimes I get a feeling that I'm in my minivan, and not a kayak 8-).

On the practical side, the paddle pockets and front cockpit storage bags tend to accumulate water on the outside due to all the material folds, but so far, this has not caused any problems.

Solar wrote:
Anyway, I look forward to joining David and Menedem as a Harpoon owner in the near future.
Cheers,


Welcome to the club 8-)

Dmitry.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Wayland Harpoon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:13 pm 
Solar wrote:
Does the extra stitches (for each pocket) affect the waterproofing of the deck?.......Menedem did indicate that the kayak stays pretty dry inside, soo maybe I am just getting a bit silly......


We do not stitch anything onto a deck, other than what is requested/required, as to avoid leakage. A few months back we were discussing sewing a logo onto our decks or hatch covers and quickly decided not to because of a concern about leakage. I still wonder myself if it's really an issue but realize you are puncturing the deck when you sew. :?:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:42 pm 
The less stitches - the better, Long Hauler is right. I don't think, though, that those deck pockets on Harpoon represent much danger, considering relatively low added length of stitches. Yes, extra folds and layers increase drying time, - as it has been already noted. I am more concerned about zipper on the hatch - it simply should not be there. If I understood it right, there is a zippered hatch, plus a zippered stern deckbag. The most reliable solution for hatch that I have seen so far, was roll-up dry-bag style sleeve a-la Feathercaft, Longhaul and Timo Noko (with or without additional cap over the sleeve - such cap is desirable, but increases the manufacturing costs). Poor quality zipper from supplier is a poor excuse - zippers on tensioned fabric have to be THE best possible, because there is a tension here, and this part is a safety matter in the boat; and as it's been noted, large YKK wouldn't cost much more than cheaper brand and/or smaller size.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Wayland Harpoon
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:00 am 
Long Hauler wrote:
We do not stitch anything onto a deck, other than what is requested/required, as to avoid leakage. A few months back we were discussing sewing a logo onto our decks or hatch covers and quickly decided not to because of a concern about leakage. I still wonder myself if it's really an issue but realize you are puncturing the deck when you sew. :?:


I think a lot depends on the deck and thread materials, or a combination of thereof.

Some combinations do not leak because either the base material or the thread expands when wet. Other combinations may require additional sealants to stay waterproof.

Tents are a good example. On most of the traditional, heavy-duty canvas tens, seams usually swell up and do not leak. Tents made of newer, high-tech materials, typically require occasional aplication of sealants or special tape to keep them waterproof.

Harpoon's deck is made of synthetic material, similar to what window awnings are made of. I do not know yet whether this type of material requires periodic resealing, or whether it stays watertight.

So far, the boat stayed very dry. Since they promised the rain again this weekend, I'll be able to confim it. :D

Dmitry


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 Post subject: Re: re: Wayland Harpoon
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:02 am 
Solar wrote:
I also inquired if they could make the hull without the Axe and Shovel pockets at the front of the deck, with the answer that they can make the skin without any of the extras as long as I specify this when ordering.


Alex,

I'd be very curious to find out which deck configuration you ended up with.

Dmitry.


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