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 Post subject: The Widest Boat?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:53 am 
What's the greatest width or beam kayak you'd use a Greenland paddle with?

Chris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:34 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:22 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
My GP, which I love, is 222 cm and not long enough to accomodate the 73 cm beam I have, so I use a semi-sliding stroke. A 230-240 cm GP is on my wishlist.

This is not exactly an answer, just an observation.

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Rasmus Møller

Triton Ladoga II Adv+3.5m2 sail+outriggers
"Nova" SOF from 1928
Euro + GP


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:16 pm 
Maximum beam is a confusing term. There is an optimal GP length for a given beam and given body. Or - an optimal beam for a given GP length and given paddler. That's why top professionals have GP custom-made to their boat and body. So, the maximum possible beam depends on both GP length and your hands length (and height). In other words, for taller guys there will be wider optimal beam possible.

My FC Klatwa GP is 227, and at my 5'7" I don't think it would work well with beam wider than 26" (and I think, it would be too long for me with beams less than 20"). So, this particular paddle for my particular body can be used on beams from 20" to 26" (have no idea where exactly is its optimal beam - I have only used it on 28" and 25" boats).

But there are some limits when GP with increased length (to accomodate wide beam) becomes ineffective, even for taller guys. The lower elbow in GP stroke should be very close to the torso, and stroke should be short, but high-angle (higher than with Euro paddle), so at some point wide beam will force you towards less effective lower-angle stroke (like with Euro), and the efficiency will suffer - even if your hands and torso are long enough to ensure correct grip with a long GP (say, 230 cm or longer). Also, the longer is GP, the more stress on your joints, which again reduces the benefits of using GP.

This is my beginner's point of view, - you better ask at GP forums.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:41 pm 
Alm wrote:
This is my beginner's point of view, - you better ask at GP forums.


Naahh, I'd rather ask you guys. Here I don't have to spell "kayak" as if it were a secret password, don't have to feel badly about paddling a commercial SOF that's wider than the measured distance between the outer edges of my hipbones plus 2", and can get some advice with humor thrown in.

Thanks,

Chris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:43 pm 
rasmusmoller wrote:
I use a semi-sliding stroke.
I've heard that's not necessarily a bad thing. What is it you like best about using the GP?

Chris


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 Post subject: I am planning on using
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:04 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 1230
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Single bladed Aleutian paddles with the Klepper. Seems like it is more suited for single bladed paddles.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:57 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:22 pm
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Christov_Tenn wrote:
rasmusmoller wrote:
I use a semi-sliding stroke.
I've heard that's not necessarily a bad thing. What is it you like best about using the GP?


I started using GP and euro (240cm Kober Lago in glass fiber) at the same time. Kober works fine and seems right for the beam, but even though the grip is somewhat ergonomic, I have a "death grip" on it, compared to the GP. I wonder if I could increase the tube diameter a little with some bicycle handle bar stuff (and make it less slippery)?

The GP is much lighter and - both my wife and I prefer it for ease of handling. My wife does not use much technique with the GP and thus she dips only half of the blade into the water - enough exercise for her (she is newbie and untrained) but not to that much propulsion effect.

I use full sliding stroke for turning. The loom has 1 inch diameter. For forward strokes, I move the pushing hand 10-15cm away from the loom where diameter/width is 2 inches to put the whole of the blade in the water. The GP is light enough that throwing it forth and back is like effortless "juggling" that doesn't really require any attention. I can't accelerate as fast with the GP, but I can use my full aerobic potential with at least as good propulsion as with euro Kober.

Do you mean to suggest that a longer GP is not a good idea for a wide boat? I just thought my semi-sliding wasn't the "right" way...

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Rasmus Møller

Triton Ladoga II Adv+3.5m2 sail+outriggers
"Nova" SOF from 1928
Euro + GP


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:35 am 
rasmusmoller wrote:
Do you mean to suggest that a longer GP is not a good idea for a wide boat? I just thought my semi-sliding wasn't the "right" way...


I lack the experience to suggest anything of the kind, however I did have a conversation with Ralph Hoehn (from whom I purchased both my Pouch boats) about my desire to make a GP about 230 cm, which is longer than the formula one sees most commonly (raising dominant arm straight up, curling fingers over, then measuring distance between ground and curled fingers). Ralph suggested that using a longer than traditionally sized GP might negate the benefits normally associated with a GP's use. He suggested use of the sliding stroke as a perfectly legitimate means of dealing with a commercial folder's beaminess. Said something to the effect that is one reason why the blades are narrow enough to get your hand all the way around with a comfortable grip. It made sense to me.

Still, I got two 4 x 6 planks of Western Red Cedar to experiment with. Hope what I make doesn't wind up looking like Charlie Brown's shop-class bird house.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:25 pm 
Christov_Tenn wrote:
Ralph suggested that using a longer than traditionally sized GP might negate the benefits normally associated with a GP's use. He suggested use of the sliding stroke as a perfectly legitimate means of dealing with a commercial folder's beaminess. Said something to the effect that is one reason why the blades are narrow enough to get your hand all the way around with a comfortable grip.


This is my feeling as well - that longer GP will negate its benefits. Still usable, but not much fun. As to the narrow blades to get the hand farther down the blade - I'm doing this for turning strokes only, with one hand near the tip of the blade, and another - in the middle of the loom. Grip around the sharp edges of the blades for longer times in forward stroke will be uncomfortable. IF the GP has very long loom with gradual transition at the root of the blade (not a shoulder-like), then it is possible to have a grip on wider section of the loom. But commercial 2-piece FC Klatwa has arelatively short loom and steep shoulder at the root. As I have to take it in air luggage, 1-piece GP won't work for me. There were some other commercial 2-piece GP, - more expensive than Klatwa.


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 Post subject: GP Qs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:59 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:06 pm
Posts: 359
Location: Spruce Head, Maine
From reading the various threads it seems that there is a certain technique--which takes some time to learn--in using a GP. Is it a bad idea to get a GP and just go out and use it without knowing the technicals of what stroke to use with it? If so, what's the best way to learn given my location? Would a GP have benefits over a standard Lendal Kinetic paddle when used with a double folder? I'm looking at a 2 pc wooden GP that comes in two sizes: 250cm and 270cm. I'm 6'3" and my wife is 5'8". Would the shorter or longer one be better?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:01 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I'm sidetracking a bit, but to answer the question of "how wide" (and since Chuck already wandered away from using a double-paddle), I will observe that one can self-propel a much wider boat than you might suspect. Witness this:

http://www.oceanrowing.com/PhotoAlbum.htm

(If anyone wants to follow this with a discussion that isn't going back to kayaks, please move it to the coffeehouse.)

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:30 pm 
Hey,

I'd totally forgotten about this thread. Yesterday I began, with the help of a venerable and aged relative who knows how to work with wood, to cut out my Greenland paddle. The first one's going to be short - only about 202 centimeters total length. I got the measurements wrong, so will use it as a sort of storm paddle, or let the nephews use it. The other cedar plank will, hopefully, become a paddle of proper size.

Some interesting looking boats on the ocean rowing site.

Chris


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 Post subject: GP Length
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:31 pm 
Image


anthropomorphic measurements were not etched in stone as you can see on the paddle lengths here. Nor were the boat measurements.

BTW the secret spelling is QAJAQ, :D ,, don't tell em I told ya..

Amongst traditional paddlers in the U.S. one of the most popular and admired is "DUBSIDE", he can do every roll in the book and some that were not in his FACTORY skin boats, a Kahuna. He went to a WISPER this season. Many of the SOF owners I know say that it is the best rolling boat they have ever been in.


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