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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:49 pm 
Yes, this information has been very helpful. Since I have a Puffin Sport, it makes sense to have my sister get one also, and that way we can have enough space for equipment in each kayak. Is the Puffin Sport as sturdy as the PII? For some reason, I thought the PII was sturdier and could handle the ocean better. Is this wrong? I thought that because of the length...
Is there any way to add a makeshift rudder to any of the Puffins? Is that necessary at all? Thanks Chris about letting me know about the limited cargo capacity of the PII (just at the back).
I emailed Mike from Fujita yesterday, and he wrote that the AL-430 can handle any sea conditions well (just like the other models-esp. with the EX grade material). How're the rudder systems with the Fujitas? Any good? He also noted the limited space on the Fujita 430, and said that anything more than a day trip would be pushing it space wise. I think I will try the demo offer at some point. I wouldn't be able to afford the Fujita anyway for atleast a few years.
I had a terrible experience with UPS. I didn't know the cost would be so much for shipping from New Hampshire. When my Puffin Sport came, I was handed a bill for $189! (so high because of Canadian border/customs taxes, etc.). I've learned my lesson to inquire about shipping methods from now on!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:19 pm 
candice wrote:
He also noted the limited space on the Fujita 430, and said that anything more than a day trip would be pushing it space wise. I think I will try the demo offer at some point. I wouldn't be able to afford the Fujita anyway for atleast a few years.
I had a terrible experience with UPS. I didn't know the cost would be so much for shipping from New Hampshire. When my Puffin Sport came, I was handed a bill for $189! (so high because of Canadian border/customs taxes, etc.). I've learned my lesson to inquire about shipping methods from now on!

All mail-orders to Canada over $20 are subject to GST+PST, no matter what shipping option. So with Puffin Sport there was 14% (about CDN$120) of canadian taxes anyway - sometimes charged upon receiveing, sometimes later in the separate bill. But UPS have their own additional charges too. If those $189 were charged later, after you've paid CND $120 GST/PST to delivery guy - then this was UPS "brokerage fees". Otherwise, the brokerage fees was $189-$120=$69. Al-430 with all the accessories costs 2 or 3 times more than Puffin Sport, so all the charges will be higher. Canada Post - that handles US Postal Services shipments after they've crossed the border - also have "brokerage fees" (called "handling fees"), but this is only CDN$5, flat rate. Plus, you'll pay 14% of GST/PST.

Chris is probably right that 2 Puffin Sports will suit you better. Al-430 is a very short boat - when I look at the photo, I wonder whether some room behind the rear paddler is the only cargo room available. With this boat it should be possible (I'm afraid - necessary) to use some deckbag with light and bulky cargo, like sleeping pads, but this isn't a good idea.

You don't need a rudder on a 10ft boat. Inertial slide is short, and the course can be corrected with each paddle stroke. P-Sport won't be, - shouldn't be - as fast as Al-430 with 2 people, and I don't know how much more cargo room you'll get, using 2 P-sports in lieu of one Al-430. May be - for 1 day more.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:15 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Alm wrote:
In P2, similarly to inflatables, the sponsons are not constrained much by the frame, and are bulging inwards, consuming some usable volume.


Mine has the old single-chamber sponsons, which do have that aspect. The newer multi-chamber sponsons give much more interior volume in the boat. I retrofitted them to my Swift.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:20 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Candice, I really think you need to:
A) try out your p-Sport, including simulated emergency re-entries, and
B) call Pakboats directly and discuss all these questions with them. Mike takes all the boats out in the surf. They are the real experts on their own boats, of course.

Beware of the term "expedition boat"-- any boat can go on an expedition. You need to test it and evaluate it for yourself.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:29 am 
Thanks for all the advice. Yes, I'll try the Sport out a lot this spring. My Puffin has double chambers, and I think it's a 2004. I'll also call Pakboats about my questions. Thanks again. This forum is quite helpful.
Candice


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:09 pm 
Candice,

I have a Puffin Sport. Although there is some storage space, it is very limited and it would depend on whether you travel light. The best thing is to have a paddle in it first. You have chosen one of the lightest folding kayaks though - only the Firstlights are a comparable weight to the sport when it comes to carrying them (larger boats and more expensive).

Rods


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:05 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Candice, you probably saw the Pakboats newsletter that just came out. You and your sister would probably fit in a 150T canoe easily, could carry anything you want, and I think it weighs about an honest 40 lbs (check the specs-- Pakboats tends to give accurate weights, unlike most others). And it would take any beating you could dish out.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:33 pm 
Canoe paddled as a tandem should be faster than two short Puffin Sports, and this is good. But when paddling solo with canoe paddle (because of the sail rig), I found canoe paddle in sitting position to be less effective than a "double-blade" kayaking paddle. It is probably more effective in kneeling position, but I am not sure those recreational canoes allow kneeling position (and this would require additional arrangements, - some cushion, and may be different paddle length). I had to use a canoe paddle in a kayak, because had no other alternative. For these ladies it looks like they don't have many alternatives either, - the boat(s) has to be light enough to carry in backpack, yet capable of 3-4day trip, and there is just not much choice out there...

Another thing that I didn't like about canoe paddle was a wetter ride - more dripping on the boat when you switch the paddle from side to side all the time. With 2 people they will have to switch less often, but still will, - to give some rest to the other hand. And here comes the issue of the open cockpit in canoes, - all the dripping and rain and occasional waves splashing will land not on the deck or sprayskirt, but into the cockpit. 150T doesn't have a spraycover as an option - may be because it's a small canoe.

But of course, give it a thought and try it out - despite all the above such a boat should still be suitable for short ovenight trips in moderate conditions. I wouldn't feel comfortable in open canoe in heavy weather far offshore, - this is something you will have to avoid.

One minor correction upon checking the specs, - 150T weighs 49 lbs, even if this is honest packed weight. You won't find any medium-volume "framed" tandem lighter than this, anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:53 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
There's no law about what sort of paddle you use in what sort of boat, just traditions.

Thanks for the correction on the weight. I wonder how easy it would be to split in half between two packs? Alv could say...

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:16 am 
Oh, I wouldn't worry about splitting 49 lbs canoe precisely in half. They will have 50 lbs or more of other stuff to equalize the two backpacks (Alv, btw, provides duffel bag with canoes, not a backpack). Another concern would be those wide canoe ribs - few large ones will be a pain in most of hiking backpacks. And then there are 51-53" long canoe paddles - perhaps the longest part of the package. There is no packed size of canoe on the Packboat site, though.

Yes, some canoes with low seat can be comfortably paddled with a kayaking paddle, but Pack canoes are not in this league. Any kayak can be paddled with canoe paddle as well, but less effficient. It's not just a tradition, but rather the most efficient tool for particular craft, developed or selected over centuries.

There are also Fujita (Ally) canoes - ranging from 39 to 49 lbs, but real packed weight could be more than that.

And to make things even more complicated, there is Fujita double kayak PE-2-500 NOAH EX, 50.5 lbs (will be 60 lbs with rudder, skirt and backpack), packs in the same backpack as single Fujitas, and paddles can be those compact 3- or 4-piece models. Looks like a decent boat in a wide range of conditions and trip duration. This will be 30 lbs per person of the boat only. With all other gear and food - hard to tell, depends on how light they can pack, but hiking will hardly be possible with cargo for more than 3-day trip. Just some walking, not without panting, from bus-stop to camping or beach. But again, with 40-lbs boat, plus cargo for more than 3 days, hiking would be a problem too...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:31 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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I think Alex is right that the Noah is a candidate, here.

I have one of those single-bladed paddles Alv sells-- it's not fancy but I really like it. I use it for sailing my Klepper. It's definitely not 51" long! It's downstairs in my "cave", so I'll try to measure it tomorrow.

I've seen the canoes in their duffels, in the shop. They're not small-- maybe 2x3x1.5 feet (60x90x45 cm). That's a very rough guess-- they might be larger or smaller. They're easier to transport than a Klepper, but much larger than a Fujita or a Puffin.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:06 pm 
I hadn't thought of a PakCanoe before. I thought the 140T looked good at only 41 lb and a capacity to hold 400lb (well, for the 140 anyway), but again it's only 14", so not enough room for equipment. It's too bad there's not a spray deck for the 140's or 150's (but there is for the 160's and up). I'm wearly about paddling anything that doesn't have the possibility of a deck or spray deck. However, on the positive side, it looks like there's an option for inflatable kayak seats in these PakCanoes, so that would allow us to kayak with kayak paddles. I really prefer kayaking to canoeing. I'm still thinking the Puffin Sports are the way to go (especially cost wise, as I already have one, and I'm still a student!). I figure the 17 lb + deck, sprayskirt, mini-anchor--1 1/2 lb, paddles, PFD will put the kayak and accessories' weight at 25-27 lbs. I would try and get the total weight of the backpack between 45 and 50 lbs (without much hiking at all). I'd try and fit everything into my LoweAlpine Contour 90 + 15 backpack. I've strapped the kayak body and deck to the outside tightly in clear bags, and everything else fits inside with a lot of room to spare (4,000 cc). I like that with the Puffin Sport, I can have a deck and sprayskirt in place to keep gear dry underneath. Of course, in nice weather, I would paddle it deckless. Also, I like the idea of two Puffin Sports, because in the case of emergency (i.e., a sponsoon bursts in one of the kayaks and it's not possible to kayak it back to shore), then the other Puffin Sport could possibly take on the extra person (albeit precariously and only until we could make it back to shore safely). If we had a Puffin II only, I'd be afraid that a sponsoon would burst and that we wouldn't be able to fix it or get back to shore in time, and what if the water was extremely cold, even with wetsuits on? Do the Puffin Sports since 2004 have keel strips for added durability. I'm away from home and can't check mine.
Thanks again Alex and Chris. You're both a wealth of information.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:16 pm 
Just took at look at Fujita's PE-2-Noah. Does look like a great kayak. Will have to keep that one in mind for the future. It's way out of our price-range now though. So that one can't really be considered. Good suggestion though.
Candice


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:41 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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candice wrote:
I thought the 140T looked good at only 41 lb... so not enough room for equipment. It's too bad there's not a spray deck for the 140's or 150's (but there is for the 160's and up). I'm wearly about paddling anything that doesn't have the possibility of a deck or spray deck... I really prefer kayaking to canoeing. I'm still thinking the Puffin Sports are the way to go (especially cost wise, as I already have one, and I'm still a student!). I figure the 17 lb + deck, sprayskirt, mini-anchor--1 1/2 lb, paddles, PFD will put the kayak and accessories' weight at 25-27 lbs. I would try and get the total weight of the backpack between 45 and 50 lbs (without much hiking at all). I'd try and fit everything into my LoweAlpine Contour 90 + 15 backpack. I've strapped the kayak body and deck to the outside tightly in clear bags, and everything else fits inside with a lot of room to spare (4,000 cc). I like that with the Puffin Sport, I can have a deck and sprayskirt in place to keep gear dry underneath... If we had a Puffin II only, I'd be afraid that a sponsoon would burst and that we wouldn't be able to fix it or get back to shore in time, and what if the water was extremely cold, even with wetsuits on?


The best thing about the Sport is that you already have one.

I think you are waaaay over-rating decks. They make it harder to get out of the boat, harder to get back in, and much harder to get the water back out. And they weigh much more than they are worth.

Also: Pakboats are the only company offering multi-chamber sponsons. These mostly-eliminate the problem you are fearing. I'm not sure those sponsons are offered on the Sport, though.

I'm glad you're doing experiments with your pack. In Nepal, I saw 120 lb guys hauling 120 lb loads-- suspended on straps around their foreheads and balanced on their backs-- up and down the Himalayas. But they were NOT having fun. I strongly suggest you put that boat in your 90 liter bag, along with a couple of pillows and 30 lbs of 1 liter bottles of water, and try hauling it up and down your local mountains for 5 miles. Maybe your a serious expedition backpacker and know you can do it, but many people overestimate how much they can comfortably carry.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:42 pm 
About the deck and sprayskirt...I'm thinking about occasions when the water's too cold to get out of the kayak and flip it over to get the water out. Or, if I'm hauling my gear with me, then how can I get out and flip it over, especially if I'm not in shallow water? It's under these circumstances, especially when taking minimal gear in the kayak for a 2-3 day trip, that I wouldn't want to risk waves pouring over. In these cases, I think it would be better to use the deck and spray skirt. Of course, once I got to the destination and just did day trips from there, or was out playing in the surf or snorkelling, of course I would use the kayak deckless. Maybe I wasn't clear earlier. Does this make sense? I'm thinking of future trips where I wouldn't be just in tropical, warm climates.
Candice


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