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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:19 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
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Location: atlanta, georgia
As for seaworthiness, you have to take Chuck's "yes" with the understanding that he is an expert open water paddler. I consider myself an experienced but not an expert sea kayaker, and I would not take the java out in big seas and definitely not out of sight of land, especially in cold water. Don't know about the other inflatables, other opinions will be more valuable with these. As for the LH, Klepper, and Framed Feathercraft I would paddle them almost anywhere with confidence, especially with spray skirt and dry top.
g

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1990 A1 Expedition
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:28 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm
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Location: Oakland, California
Motty,

Regarding seaworthiness...
What do you regard as seaworthy, and in what conditions?
Kayaks can be seaworthy if used by a knowledgeable paddler. They are also entirely unseaworthy if used in conditions beyond the capability of the paddler. I am just reading Sea Kayaker's book "Deep Trouble", an eye opener!
In kayaking seaworthiness will largely depend on you. It will also depend on the total gear package and how you learn to use it. There is a learning curve. The upshot is that both your skills and equipment need to be matched to the conditions in which you paddle. There will likely always be conditions in which you should not venture out, I know there are for me.

Chris

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Pionier 450 S
Kette SE 54
Mariner Coaster
HSF Horst Hartung Slalom 50
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:02 am 
I plan to paddle up to 3 km from shore , but most trips will be parallel to shore with mild waves not exceeding moderate breeze. Near the shore we usually have waves of 0.5 to 1 meter

I am not a skilled paddler and paddled in these conditions with hard shell kayak (always in a group). My skills are very basic, I even do not know to Eskimo roll but can return to kayak with assistance

Regards
Motty


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:46 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Location: Oakland, California
Motty,

To get back to your question on Klepper assembly weight etc:
Expect the total weight to be around 75lb (35kg) depending on total package. They pack into 3 bags, one for the long frame pieces, second for skin and transverse frames and third for seats, rudder etc. Set-up and disassembly times are at least 20-30 minutes (varies with how many extra goodies you carry!). Fishing? Sure, they are stable enough and the cockpit is large enough for the "big one".

A bit more on seaworthiness and choice of kayaks:
I feel that my Klepper AE II is a very stable and forgiving kayak, perfect to take non-kayakers out paddling in moderate conditions (near shore, small waves, wind less than 10 knots). With a spray skirt and more experienced paddlers, it is certainly seaworthy in open water and more challenging conditions. However, do not expect to be able to roll one. If you go over expect a wet exit. Then you either have to be able to get back in, or swim to shore. In the conditions that caused you to capsize in the first place, with a swamped kayak. Think about this.
For rough conditions where capsizing is likely you want a kayak set up for rolling and know how to roll: Hip, thigh/knee and foot braces, all adjusted to your body. Plus spray skirt and dry suit/top. The idea is that you can stay in the kayak at all times and limit the amount of water which gets in when you capsize. The kayak should also be more slender, with less initial stability to easily permit rolling. In the hands of a competent kayaker who can roll in any conditions this type will likely be more seaworthy in rough conditions. My only kayak which comes close to this is my Klepper T67, but I still have a ways to go...
See where I am getting with this? Seaworthiness is relative to the intended use and your skill level. The more extreme conditions get, the harder it is to maintain seaworthiness.

My final advice? Get a stable, sturdy and forgiving double as your first kayak to share with your spouse and grand children. Then, look into an appropriate single for the kind of kayaking you enjoy most.

Chris

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Klepper Aerius II
Nautiraid Miniraid
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Pionier 450 S
Kette SE 54
Mariner Coaster
HSF Horst Hartung Slalom 50
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:51 am 
Thanks Cris!
Well analyzed and explained advise. Appreciate putting so much thought, analyzing the intended needs and my limited expertise in kayaking. I am sure this info will be of great value to many others novice paddlers struggling with same questions as I am.

As a result I am seriously considering to choose as my first tandem kayak Innova Sunny suggested by tsunamichuck, packboat's XT17 by Simon and Gumotex Solar by paraglia (thanks you all!). It is not what I imagined when I stared this journey, but eventually with your great help I will reach a right decision. A lot to learn! But I enjoy every step forwards. Anyhow will select only after the Ulm testing session.
Regards motty


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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:26 pm 
My opinion about inflatables is, while I own one, an Advanced Elements Convertible, as our first kayak two years ago is you will inevitably wish you had a better craft. I spent well over $1000 on the kayak and to upgrade it to make it better. That money could have gone to purchasing our second kayak. A Long Haul Mark 2. Very similar to the Klepper A2 but improved. It's not that you may not be happy with an inflatable but it will be a compromise. In life we make compromises but if possible, we can save time, effort and money by buying the right kayak the first time.

If stability (seaworthiness) is your primary desire, buy the most stable kayak you can find in your area. I have grandkids and there is no way I want to take them out in anything less. I have had them in our AEC inflatable but I dreamed for better and I found it.

Just my $.02.


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:35 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Anchorage Alaska
FrankP wrote:
My opinion about inflatables is, while I own one, an Advanced Elements Convertible, as our first kayak two years ago is you will inevitably wish you had a better craft. I spent well over $1000 on the kayak and to upgrade it to make it better. That money could have gone to purchasing our second kayak. A Long Haul Mark 2. Very similar to the Klepper A2 but improved. It's not that you may not be happy with an inflatable but it will be a compromise. In life we make compromises but if possible, we can save time, effort and money by buying the right kayak the first time.

If stability (seaworthiness) is your primary desire, buy the most stable kayak you can find in your area. I have grandkids and there is no way I want to take them out in anything less. I have had them in our AEC inflatable but I dreamed for better and I found it.

Just my $.02.


I have recently started using inflatables. Actually sold my A2 after picking up a Helios. What I got was the same effective cruising speed when paddling with a non paddling passenger and better ergonomics in a much smaller and more manageable package. What I gave up is cargo capacity and sailing capability which was not a big issue for me.

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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 10:00 am 
My experience with the Advanced Elements Convertible was good. We enjoyed it for one full year of about 25-30 day trips including Lake Michigan and Tellico Lake in TN. With a non paddling front paddler I could keep it going at 3 MPH and with my wife paddling we could get up to 3.5 MPH. I never felt the glide was great but the worst was it usually tracked to port some in a glide. It is more difficult than it should be to get the setup just right.

In our LH MK2 I can more easily paddle at 4 MPH and with both paddling we can hit 4.5. Glide is much better and straight. Now it is silly to compare an AEC with a Long Haul folding kayak as they are vastly different crafts. Built for different purposes and vastly different costs. My point was, it was nice as a novice, to find out that we really liked kayaking by buying a less expensive kayak. If you already know you enjoy kayaking, why spend the money on a starter kayak unless money is the issue.

Again I will say I have never regretted purchasing the AEC and all the upgrades and now we have a fine guest kayak if someone visits and does not have a kayak. My daughter and my 2 Granddaughters paddled along on a beautiful lake last summer in the AEC. That was fun. Water gun battles etc...


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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 1:05 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 224
One day we decided to get a kayak... No prior experience in sea kayaking, no courses, no training, no books, no skills... only a great appetite for adventure... :)

We looked at Folbot first, but the new hulls seemed not strong enough for our needs and the obvious option was Long Haul. If you want a strong, reliable, forgiving boat, the answer is Long Haul.

We never regretted our option. Stable, roomy and comfortable, excellent cargo storage, under the deck and on deck. It handles well wind and swells, it goes through the surf without bouncing like a yo-yo, it seems happy while sailing.

We never practiced an eskimo roll and we don't expect to ever do it in our tandem. If we go in the drink we'll go through a wet exit and do our best to get back on top of it... :)

3 Km off shore is not that far, nor should it be intimidating... make sure you wear a pfd, adequate clothing for the water temperature, and a device for communication and/or signaling (a PLB and a marine VHF + a strobe or flare can't hurt either).

Whatever boat you decide to buy, above all, make sure you take with you a solid dose of enthusiasm and a wide smile... :)

Enjoy!

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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 12:36 am 
great optimistic and encouraging comment! thanks
MottyPE


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 1:14 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:36 pm
Posts: 248
Location: west burbs of Chicago
Keep in mind that 3 km from shore can be up to an hour of paddling depending on head winds or contrary current and depending on how tired / cold you are. If you capsize and do a wet exit, you probably won't be able to empty a double, re-enter and paddle back to shore as if nothing happened.
Most likely you'll either try to swim the flooded boat home or sit in the flooded boat and paddle to shore. Both end up being impossible in conditions that cause a capsize. I read "Deep Trouble" a few years ago and it was very educational. Many stories of how NOT to do it. The most common thread in all the stories was inability to empty and re-enter in rough conditions - which caused the capsize in the first place.
The common thread in the fatalities was failure to wear the PFD. Several had it in the boat with them. If you don't wear it you might as well not have it.

If you're seriously considering a folding double, you should at least look at the Folbot GII (Greenland II). It's not a Long Haul but it doesn't cost like one either. Unless you plan to do self-supported expeditioning in the far boonies, you probably don't need the ultimate that Long Haul will give you.
Folbot has dealers in Germany and Sweden.

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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 12:44 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Posts: 224
We like the looks of the Feathercraft, the price of the Folbot and the strength and durability of the Long Haul. It depends on one's priorities and desire to invest. Another important factor in evaluating a product is customer service because the relationship extends for years, way beyond the product delivery...

I agree with "flatwater". The PFD must be worn. But adequate clothing is also extremely important. Assume that you'll swim and dress for the water temperature. Hypothermia hits before drowning. The water pump is essential. Signaling and communication is also essential in case of emergency.

I agree with "flatwater" that a capsized tandem will be extremely hard to re-enter and empty in conditions that lead to the capsize. Most of the rescue tehnique exercises are performed on sunny days... :) Depending on the load and amount of gear, most probably, swimming or paddling the flooded boat to the nearest shore would be the easiest option. That may take a while if the shore is beyond eye sight...

I don't know how day paddlers plan their trips, or if they decide to get out and paddle regardless of weather conditions, but on a multi-day expedition, unless we really have to leave shore for other urgent reasons, we always plan to stay put on stormy days. Capsizing and losing equipment can compromise the success of an expedition and avoiding a capsize is intrinsic to good planning.

We are perpetual novices and more experienced kayakers articulated this advice much, much better. Don't let the choice of kayak overshadow the enjoyment of kayaking... :) Buy it, put the PFD and hop in...

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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:36 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Oakland, California
Motty,

Did you get a chance to try out some folders this past weekend at the Out-Trade event?
Would love to hear your impressions and also on what is popular there at the moment!
Did it help you decide on a kayak?

Chris

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Klepper Aerius II
Nautiraid Miniraid
Klepper T67
Pionier 450 S
Kette SE 54
Mariner Coaster
HSF Horst Hartung Slalom 50
P&H Hammer


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:02 am 
I have a klepper aerius 2 and a longhaul mk 2 commando.

Depends on what you want it for.

The commando is heavier but the kayak of choice for expeditions or rougher waters. It also has stainless steel fittings as opposed to aluminium which is a plus when salt water paddling.

The klepper is lighter but has more (albeit longer term) weaknesses with aluminium clips etc.

Perfect mid point is probably the long haul mk 2 lightweight (i.e. long haul mk 2 but with a lighter frame/ fittings) - you can go for bespoke options:

http://longhaulfoldingkayaks.com/wordpr ... k-package/

The long haul service is very good.

Buy a good kayak, get some paddling and sea safety lessons, pfd, radio, epirb and flares.

Once you have the right craft, skills and safety kit you can paddle with the confidence you know what to do to look after yourself and loved ones when plans go awry.

Enjoy!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:08 pm 
Hi!
I want to thank you all for your fruitful comments and assistance that helped me to learn a lot about foldable and inflatable kayaks. Finally I decided to purchase a GUMOTEX SEAWATER inflatable kayak that can be used as solo, tandem and even to paddle with three people. Received it recently and made some short trials in local small lakes in Switzerland. First impressions are very good and seems that I made a right choice for my current paddling aims.

I could not participate in the Ulm testing event and had to decide based on written literature and some comments by owners.

The kayak is transportable in a single pack of less than 20 kg, so easily to carry in the car, reasonable weight on my back, can be ready for paddling about 15 to 20 minutes and responds nicely in calm water and during wind.

Now looking for an introductory course on white water paddling in Switzerland and will report later.
Thanks again
Motty


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