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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:08 pm 
I think we will let the matter rest there. Reasonable readers of this thread will be able to draw their own conclusions.

Regards,

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:43 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Happy paddling to you

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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:33 pm 
I'm going a bit off topic here, but that's never stopped me before ...

I mostly use a 240cm , but also have paddles over 250cm. However, these are Aleut and Greenland (AP / GP) paddles,
so there is no huge blade hanging out on the ends to get in the way :wink: . My paddles average 2.5 to 3 inches wide
with about 90 - 100 sq inches surface per blade (34" - 36") length .

Now, whenever I try a euroblade (spoon), I feel like I'm paddling with a blunt object, and can't wait to get back to my
narrow, flexible, efficient AP / GP. I'm no faster at cruising pace with a regular paddle than an AP, and a heck of a lot
more comfortable doing so. At 64, I appreciate the fact that my old shoulders never hurt thanks to the lower resistance
and flexibility of the narrow wooden paddles. They are almost therapeutic.

With the AP / GP, you can use as much or as little of the blade as you want. Paddling technique can vary between a mostly
flat stoke to a nearly verticle stroke due to the blades symmetrical shape. The longer AP's that I use have one characteristic
vs traditionally shorter GP's and that is the slower turnover rate required.


It stands to reason that since the Aleut and Inuit built arguably the best kayaks, they also had the good sense to build
the best paddles :D With an Arctic AP / GP there is no reason to spend a fortune as building one from a cedar or
redwood 2X4 takes just a few hours, and a few dollars.... plus it's fun doing so ! Wipe on a coat of Watco oil and
you're good to go.

These paddles are well suited to Feathercraft and any other narrow kayak, but the wider, and especially taller
Folbots / Kleppers, etc, may not be ideally suited to them. In that case, get a longer paddle, or a narrower kayak :lol:

I built my own europaddles for many years and used them in USCA Marathon competition. I switched to Arctic paddles
20 years ago, and have never looked back. The bottom line is to simply try them all, from Euro and Arctic, and in numerous
lengths and blade sizes. That way, you can decide for yourself which style best suits your needs.

This is where I go off way off topic ....

Here's a new nearly completed folding kayak prototype. This is a true folding kayak ... not a take-apart or inflatable.
The next version will be a 16 foot Greenland followed by a small double.
Image
Image

240cm GP at the lake ....
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:12 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am
Posts: 394
Location: Coastal New Jersey
The evolution of boats and ancillary gear is always a fascinating subject. A few of my paddling companions tend to dismiss the efficacy of Inuit paddles, refering to them as "museum sticks" and by saying that if the Inuit paddlers had had access to technology they would have evolved early forms of the wing paddle. I'm not sure how a 240cm GP could be used in a comfortable, high-angle style but, then, I have really never used a GP for more than a few minutes so I'm really not in a position to make a judgement. The 210cm that I'm now using has a surface area of about 95 sq inches which would be right in line with a 210 to 220cm GP. It's winter and I don't paddle when the water temp drops below 50 so now might be the time to pick up a ten dollar cedar 2x4 and start whittling.


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:07 pm 
Quote:
...if the Inuit paddlers had had access to technology they would have evolved early forms of the wing paddle.


Arctic paddles are high aspect ratio wings. We moderns tend to dismiss the brilliance of these seemingly simple paddles
developed over thousands of years. If you study historical Aleut kayaks in detail, you will be amazed at the genius of
their design.

It's back to the future for me :D

Quote:
... now might be the time to pick up a ten dollar cedar 2x4 and start whittling


Here's my instructions for making a Greenland paddle and a simplified Aleut paddle ( take-apart). Scroll to the bottom
of each page for text and use the (Next Page) key to advance. I prefer the modified Aleut paddle with it's flat (lengthwise) power face.

http://www.yostwerks.com/GPIntro.html

The Aleut also made paddles that appear more modern ... I made this one based on an old drawing.
After using it a few times, it now hangs on a wall in my house. I still much prefer the skinny ones :wink:

Image

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:07 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 618
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Congratulations on your new folding kayak Tom! Looking forward to when you publish more details and to the 16' greenland version :-)
PS As a fairly new kayaker, I also noticed that my shoulder problems disappeared when I switched to a (240 cm) GP
Simon

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:09 am 
Thanks.... I still have to add the deck and coaming and then find some not yet frozen water to paddle on.

It will be spring before the 16 footer is completed.

Folders take too long to assemble, so this is my attempt to correct this. I had to change my way of thinking in order to do so as a conventional folding frame is not the solution and inflatbles limit design and perfomance.


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:16 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 618
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Could I ask what the inflatable related limits on performance for the Sonnets are, Tom, if any? Are they limitations the sponsons place on chine shape/keel depth, or is it just that they can't be as narrow as you'd like due to the sponson width, or ...? I'm curious as Spring is such a long time away that I think I'll try to build a Sonnet to take down the coast on the bike before then :-)

Simon

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:34 pm 
Quote:
Could I ask what the inflatable related limits on performance for the Sonnets are, Tom, if any? Are they limitations the sponsons place on chine shape/keel depth, or is it just that they can't be as narrow as you'd like due to the sponson width, or ...? I'm curious as Spring is such a long time away that I think I'll try to build a Sonnet to take down the coast on the bike before then


I'm actually referring to a true inflatable, not a hybrid like the Sonnet. However, the Sonnet is a fairly shallow boat due to the Folbot sponsons being used ( 2 per side). I built with 3 per side on a Sonnet double, but that was more expensive plus harder to build and assemble.

Overall, the Sonnet is a little slower than my standard folders, but great in a crosswind. The Sonnet's width is not a problem.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:50 am 
Paddle leangth seems to be a passionate subject. Being new at this I hope I don't add more heat. I have a Longhaul II. We are in our 60s and 5'6", 5'4" respectively. Been mostly into hiking, skiing, and biking so reasonably fit but upper body strength not really developed. Longhaul recommended 240 for us. Others here voiced concerns about sloppy form and stress on shoulders from such a long paddle. Would a smaller blade help? I'm leaning towards the Werner Camino little dipper 240. But I have come to trust the advice I've gotten on this Forum.
Thanks to all
Alex (not the knowledgeable one)


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:08 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am
Posts: 394
Location: Coastal New Jersey
Sshhhh..........don't wake Tsunamichuck! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:00 pm 
Mark Eckhart of Long Haul would not steer you wrong. The Little Dipper has a smaller blade than the Camano, but otherwise is the same design. Shoulder problems are a function of how hard you paddle, not simply the size of the paddle and blade used. Go easy, with a nice relaxed grip and build up your musculature over time. Build up to longer duration paddle trips slowly. Pay attention to your form and you will be fine. If you haven't done so, it would be very helpful and prudent to seek paddling lessons at a local kayak shop. Correct technique is extremely important to ensure safety and health on the water.

I have a Mk1 which is 4" narrower than your Mk2. I have several paddles and really like my 240 the best, and my 235 second best for relaxed cruising in the Mk1. In rough water, a 220 seems to work well, which is what Werner recommended to me on their website using their sizing program. You might want to run through their sizing program yourself before ordering paddles. Another thing to consider is that you and your wife might need different paddles. If you can, borrow a few different paddles to try before buying.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:27 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Alex wrote:
Paddle leangth seems to be a passionate subject. Being new at this I hope I don't add more heat. I have a Longhaul II. We are in our 60s and 5'6", 5'4" respectively. Been mostly into hiking, skiing, and biking so reasonably fit but upper body strength not really developed. Longhaul recommended 240 for us. Others here voiced concerns about sloppy form and stress on shoulders from such a long paddle. Would a smaller blade help? I'm leaning towards the Werner Camino little dipper 240. But I have come to trust the advice I've gotten on this Forum.
Thanks to all
Alex (not the knowledgeable one)

If you are at Tahoe, you are welcome to try my paddles. Got a few lengths from 190-245 mostly small blades but a couple wlg blades. Your best bet is not to follow advice from strangers on a message board but to go and test paddle, especially at a symposium or a local paddle club where someone could check your form. or a high end paddleshop that sells a few different brands of paddles

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Mariner Express ( Miruku Maru ) ( In Storage)
Innova Helios 380
Northwest Sportee (SuperBoat)
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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:59 am 
Thanks,
Are there any paddle clubs in North Lake Tahoe?

Alex
Long Haul Mark II


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 Post subject: Re: Paddle Length
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:30 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Alex wrote:
Thanks,
Are there any paddle clubs in North Lake Tahoe?

Alex
Long Haul Mark II

Not really, a few of us have been paddling out of Kings Beach and Sand Harbor. I will likely be going out Friday-Sunday. Have lots of paddles.

_________________
Feathercraft Kahuna ( Angela )
Mariner Express ( Miruku Maru ) ( In Storage)
Innova Helios 380
Northwest Sportee (SuperBoat)
Innova Safari
Mariner I
Feathercraft Java
Nautiraid 14
Innova Sunny
Feathercraft K-Light


Top
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