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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 7:29 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1382
Location: South Salem, NY
Quote:
I have quite a few questions about the currents in our neck of the woods.

Absolutely, anytime. Somewhere in my logs I have some simple conversion times for current movement in various spots relative to tides at the Battery. I'll find them, and gladly offer any other suggestions I can to you or anyone else thinking of paddling in the East River.

I tie everything to the kayak as well. But I need a good system to connect myself to it when sailing. I almost lost the boat once when I abandoned ship in a successful attempt to prevent a capsize. The problem was that the boat kept sailing once righted. I barely caught hold of the life-line at the stern. What kind of release are you all using? the North Water one is pretty expensive.

d

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Last edited by DLee on Thu May 21, 2015 7:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 2:30 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm
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Location: Oakland, California
Dennis,

Great photo! But what else is new... You have an excellent eye.

About tying things off: Yes indeed, so do I. I try to do it with carabiners or tying things down tight first. If that does not work, then with short lengths of line. The risk is in longer tethers flopping around, especially with multiple ones. I also feel that the risks of entrapment versus becoming separated from your 'yak are different say between an open water crossing and paddling in rough waves near shore. Difference between being blown apart from, or tumbled around with the kayak? Yes, it is a judgment call!
Oh yeah, I know the feeling of your sail boat trying to take off without you. Wild!
The quick release used by North Water is simply a modified cam buckle such as this:
http://bucklerus.com/collections/plasti ... =964284879
The key is to add that plastic ball to grab onto.
I happen to have a North Water tow belt, yes expensive, but first class construction with quality/pricey components. Just that big stainless steel carabiner will set you back some $. But that, at first glance, "oversized" carabiner makes one handed clipping and unclipping sooo much easier with wet/cold or gloved hands. Their line pays out very smoothly too, without wanting to tangle.

Chris O.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 9:20 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1382
Location: South Salem, NY
That's interesting Chris, I hadn't realized you simply release the entire belt. I was looking at something else. When I saw that buckle I did some more searching and found the belt systems. Interesting.

I did more searching and I think this is more along the lines of what I was thinking to attach to my vest - one of those ball and lines on the pull ring would be nice.
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/ronstan--fixed-bail-snap-shackles--P002_060_001_501

d

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 5:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:54 pm
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The load on a 15 x 6 ft vessel at anchor in 30 knots of wind is 250 lb, in 42 knots 500 lb, and in 60 knots 1000 lb. A series drogue is not fixed as an anchor but moving and even if you add the recommended surge load factor of 1.25, I don't really see how the load on a skinny kayak can ever become as high as 1000 lb.

Mats

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:46 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1382
Location: South Salem, NY
I think it's the momentary surge, with perhaps a moment of slack, that's of concern.

But as the drogue is moving through the water, and the nature of the series drogue not really allowing slack... I'm inclined to agree with you.

I keep envisioning 'Perfect Storm' scenes where this worst case scenario could occur. I just can't imagine any of us being out in a double folder in conditions like that. At least I surely hope not.

d

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 2:26 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 221
DLee wrote:
That's interesting Chris, I hadn't realized you simply release the entire belt. I was looking at something else. When I saw that buckle I did some more searching and found the belt systems. Interesting.

I did more searching and I think this is more along the lines of what I was thinking to attach to my vest - one of those ball and lines on the pull ring would be nice.
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/ronstan--fixed-bail-snap-shackles--P002_060_001_501

d


That is how the rescue PFD works, that's what we have on our vests, including the beautiful red plastic ball..:)

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:39 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Oakland, California
Quote:
That's interesting Chris, I hadn't realized you simply release the entire belt. I was looking at something else. When I saw that buckle I did some more searching and found the belt systems. Interesting.

I did more searching and I think this is more along the lines of what I was thinking to attach to my vest - one of those ball and lines on the pull ring would be nice.

The simple reason for the belt release versus a line release is that when you tow someone the line is in tension from your back. To release the line quickly, you want to release it at your front.
Typically, the need to release is when you are about to be pulled over and then needs to happen very quickly.
I actually also use a snap shackle for the shortened line (daisy chained). Clips to the last loop and is attached to the attachment webbing inside the belt pouch. Why? Gives two tether lengths!

Chris O.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:12 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:00 pm
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Location: Upper New Zealand
Hi ChrisO (and others of course..)
Just a point here that others may not have picked up on. You say that the pull is "from the Back" which is correct, however, the force is on the front, i.e. the belly. I know this because I too, also use a White Water PFD and occasionally have had to tow someone. This system allows me to "instantly" release if required (even upside down)
Jolly hard work even with a nylon tow line and bungy cord "in line" to take shock load and "gentleman" towed boat forward. I have never tried a drogue in this manner.This is known as a "slack tow" as opposed to the use of a catenary to "pull" the two boats toward each other. I'm sure Mr Dlee could explain it more eloquently..
I have used a "Sea Anchor" off the bow of my 38' Catamaran whilst sailing around the Pacific with great success. If it is any consolation, BIG boat people have pretty much the same questions/doubts about sea anchors and drogues as us kayakers. "Drag Device Data Base" is worth a read even if it applies to larger boats. Big boats will sometimes tow a "drogue" made of a long line tied to both sides of the boat with a weight (anchor?) in the middle to create drag and give steerage/control to the boat. This ALSO acts as spoiler to break up surface tension of large following waves and create a "smooth" patch and prevent the wave breaking.
On my Sea Kayaking Soirees, I use a parachute I "borrowed" from a Military flare (used) approx. 75 cms in diameter. This allows me to have lunch, pee, etc without losing too many hard upwind meters while goofing off. I use what I think, others have been referring to as a Trolley to deploy to bow.
Tally Ho..


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:24 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1382
Location: South Salem, NY
Hey Kiwisailor, I never did get my towing endorsement so I'll let someone else answer that catenary question... I do know, as you must as well, that sea going tows can be very long which must be for absorbing or rather negating any shock the tow would put on the tug.

Anyway, I'm curious about your 'sea anchor.' I was given one about the same size as yours that I've never tried. Have you found a distance that you like for it's positioning and how effective do you think it is against the wind blowing you back... like 50%, 75%?

Thanks,

d

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:11 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:00 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Upper New Zealand
Hi Dlee, good question. I really don't know regarding the speed backwards, down wind as I've never bothered to check with GPS. I do know that it is well worth the time and trouble (not much of either) to deploy and retrieve Sea anchor/parachute. Sure saves a lot of mileage, generally hard earned..

Had a experience in My Big Boat, catamaran (38') a few years back when I deployed my 15' Para anchor. I simply needed a rest as was hallucinating due to lack of sleep. I had to hand steer for 14 days (and nights!) from NZ to Tonga as my wind steering was Kaput. Anyway, the boat was actually going upwind at 1.5 knots, the current was dragging me north! It was pumping like a jelly fish. Since then I have been a lot more conscious to speed over ground as opposed to the through the water.

I'm due to head away in F.C. K1 shortly for trip up around Taveuni Is. (Fiji) to look for snakes (Boa) so if unlucky enough to get nasty weather and GPS is on, I will check water speed/ wind speed.
As an aside, when paddling around here and stopping on beach, I ALWAYS put on my blank cockpit cover. Sea snakes have a nasty habit of slithering inside ANY dark space. :twisted:

The Sea anchor is definitely something now that I just consider as part of kayak equipment as much as spray deck. There have been a few times in years past I would have given my left/right gonad to have had one available. Length of Nylon rode is always the same, approx. 10 meters. Have never deployed it in life threatening conditions, yet.. N.B. I ALWAYS lift rudder out when anchor is deployed.
I do consider it necessary to have a float attached to it so it will stay near surface. Had a very nasty incident years ago when my Trapezoid Sled Kite went into water and went down (125' line). A fuel tanker was leaving the Port at time, and I was in Mid.Channel. Darn glad I had my knife in PFD that day ! Those Tanker horns a really loud.. I'm a fruit loop sometimes!
Cheers, Wayne


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:12 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1382
Location: South Salem, NY
Cool stuff Wayne. I'm envious.

Think I'll pull my sea anchor out and check the size... very cool idea and a lot easier than putting an actual anchor down. Definitely going to try this out. Thanks for the tip on the float. Not sure I would have thought of that on the first go round.

Have a great trip, sounds a little wild. ha.

d

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Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:59 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:00 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Upper New Zealand
Hi, very jealous of your photo Dlee. Another paddler and I were lucky enough to get invited on a Voith Schnieder Propelled Tug at Marsden Pt. N.Z. at night. (1992?)
We went out and took a line from a rather large Oil Tanker by the stern. We were being towed stern to stern by Tanker. The Tug Skipper was facing Aft (of course) and steered via two small joy sticks.
The tow rope was Blue Steel polypropylene approx. 150mm thick. I was out on wing deck looking UP to the Tanker. That tow line was "singing" I decided to come back into Bridge and hide behind the armoured glass. Skipper just laughed and said "wise move".
As a kid I witnessed a Bow Line Handler on a Tanker, cut in two when the Bow Line sheered. Sure was a sharp lesson.
Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voith_Schnieder_Propeller if interested in the propulsion system.
It surprised me how efficient this egg beater type system is and it does actually relate to our system. Think sculling and it will click. Amazing.
Cheers, W


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:46 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1382
Location: South Salem, NY
Thanks Wayne, that's awesome. I spent a bit of time talking to a captain that was training to drive one of the Staten Is. Ferries here in NY. He was trying to describe to me this Voith Schneider Propeller. The 'egg beater' principal kinda made sense but the illustrations and some of the Voith Water Tractor videos I just watched make it pretty clear. Amazing stuff. I often wish I had continued with that line of work. I imagine this tech will become pretty prominent as we go on. Really glad I had the opportunity to do what little I did. Stuff I'll never forget that's for sure. Speaking of never forgetting... that's a pretty gruesome scene you witnessed there... I've heard about that happening, but thankfully never saw.

There's a canoe meet I try and get to every year and one of the many workshops they have is paddle techniques. These folks kneel on the inside 'chine' (but rounded) of the canoe and do absolutely amazing things with their paddles. Rolling the boat over on it's side keeps the keel from directing too much and they move the canoes with incredible grace any direction they seem to desire. Super cool. Just like the above systems... One of the many reasons I like to keep a canoe paddle in the boat. Fun stuff; and fine docking is, and always will be one of my favorite things to do. Ha.

d

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Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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