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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:30 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
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Location: atlanta, georgia
Doi,

I like the idea, but it seems a little unsafe for you. Would you suggest you clip it to your wife's vest instead. :-)

g

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:55 pm 
faltbootemeister
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As I said, not encouraging anybody to do it, but for me it works well. The release on a rescue PFD takes a second, so it is very easy to let the sea anchor go if it becomes a liability.

When I deploy it I feed the line by hand to avoid the shock at the end of the line. Not quite sure why Mark suggests ten times the length of the boat. It works well with twice the length of the boat.

It also works when towing the boat with a power boat.

No, I wouldn't clip it to my wife's PFD, but when the seas are rough we are clipping the PFDs to the life line, so the boat stays with us after an unfortunate wet exit.. :)

That's how I like to do things and I don't claim that is a procedure to follow... :) to each his own.

if proven otherwise, in a real situation, I'll adapt and change.

cheers...:)

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:33 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: South Salem, NY
Oh I got a good chuckle out of that one Greg, ha.

The reason for the length is probably just the same as a real anchor, scope. You can get a 30' anchor line to hold you in 20' of water but it's not a solid hold. A wake, wave, wind even an increase in current could easily dislodge this anchoring and off you go, ready or not. Proper scope is approximately 5-7 times the depth. So theoretically you'd want 100'-140' of line out... that's a lot of line for a 17' kayak but not necessarily a 17' boat... so you might be able to reduce the factor a little bit, but better safe than sorry. The idea of the scope is really two-fold. First it gives the anchor a better angle to dig into the bottom and hold. Second, with that much line out, any outside force or action that occurs to your boat has little or no reaction to your anchor hold. Thereby allowing it to hold fast in the toughest unexpected conditions.

With the sea anchor it's a little different but not much. The sea anchor digs into the water instead of the bottom and holds back our forward momentum while riding out rough waves. If the line is too short the anchor could get swept up into the same wave, or following wave that is pushing us and the safety net is lost. It only takes a moment to go sideways. The biggest problem, I think, is that with a short line the sudden pushing and pulling from the boat bouncing around in waves can cause the sea anchor to surface and fold up... becoming completely ineffective, and then possibly deploying again at the worst moment giving a sudden and forceful stopping halting action on the boat. Fluidity is the key here so having the long line gives you the safety net again. Even if the anchor collapses momentarily on a wave 150' back, the line alone will effectively continue to do a good portion of the anchors job until it deploys again. This is the main reason that the series drogue is so effective, all those little parachutes can't possibly all flatten out at once, and the simple length of the thing can't help but be effective as drag.

As mentioned much earlier in this thread, some kayakers simply use a long line as a drogue. For landing in surf this may not be enough, but for traversing some rough open water it may be a perfect solution.

Holding back a boat in rough conditions apparently exerts a tremendous amount of force on the sea anchor and the boat. I was given a sea anchor recently and looked it up online last night. I was surprised to learn that my anchor, which is pretty heavy duty, is only classified for fishing... i.e. to hold a drift. The same company makes a USCG endorsed sea anchor and it's super heavy duty and costs about 4 times as much.

d

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 10:11 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 222
Well, the armchair theory is always flawless. It makes sense, at least until reality brings in its complexity in the details... :)

I use a separate line pulling the narrow end of the funnel to retrieve the drogue if the conditions change. The main reason I'd use a drogue is to avoid uncontrolled drifting if I run out of means to advance. Landing with tail surf is part of the fun and game of landing. Keeping an eye on the weather and water conditions and picking up the right moment to put in or take out is also part of the fun... :)

I believe the strength of the folder is coming from all parts that make the frame working together, like a web. The frame of a folder is not designed to be pulled from any certain point alone. Why is it recommended not to tow a folder?

Attaching the line of the drogue, or tow, to my body spreads the pull to a much larger area and cushions the momentum. It is not a theory. It may be even the wrong procedure. But I went there, done that, got the T-shirt. And it worked. Once again, each to his own... :)

Now, let's aim the jokes at each other and keep the spouses out of range, please.

I look forward to seeing the videos of you both on the water, gentlemen... :)

My drogue is a fishing drogue from Cabelas. It has lead on the bottom of the square and it stays open. So far, so good. If I notice problems with my method, I'll adjust it.

Cheers.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:12 am 
FWIW, the recommended build specs from seriesdrogue.com are:

15 cone drogue
33 metres x 10mm double braid polyester rope
25 metre leader with 15 cones attached to last 8 metres
2 x 3 metre bridle legs

So that's ~115 feet. So a bit shorter than the line Long Haul is using, but then, a series drogue is a different beast from a sea anchor.

I asked them about the load rating of the line their using, as it struck me as rather light, and am waiting for info.

I think I'll stick to my original design plans of using the webbing strap and look at sewing the bow end of the mounting loop into a bridle of sorts, fitting around the bow, and running back over the deck, through the d-ring loops and through the stern handle loop. Probably overkill, but I'm sure I'll be happy for the beefier construction should I ever end up in conditions warranting its use.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 6:47 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 820
Location: atlanta, georgia
Doi,

No intent to offend whatsoever, sorry if I did,

g

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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 8:28 am 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 222
gbellware wrote:
Doi,

No intent to offend whatsoever, sorry if I did,

g


It's all good... :)

eager to get back on the water.

a.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:02 pm 
rhumbunctious wrote:
I asked them about the load rating of the line their using, as it struck me as rather light, and am waiting for info.


Reply: The break strength of the #650 paracord is 300 pounds.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 2:48 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
That's odd! You would think they'd specify somthing that could hold more than 1000 lbs...

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~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 2:51 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: South Salem, NY
Doi, same here, no offense intended.

I may be a little armchair captaining for the sea anchor as I've only used them a few times... however, I held a 100 ton Masters ticket for years and drove a Ferry in NY Harbor. But before that I was a charter fishing captain in same said harbor for about 7 years. Fishing primarily the East River, Hell Gate, and the Upper Harbor, anchoring 5 or 6 times a night... so I know a little about anchoring and the myriad ways you can totally screw yourself if you don't do it right... because I think I've made every mistake in the book... at least once.

To get the 100 ton ticket, before I started driving the ferry, I had a minimum of 720 documented days on the water... so after a while I take my knowledge, like you take yours, and think about how a certain problem should or could be solved. It's not always right, but I'm usually in the right ballpark for the game. I've pulled nets that have snagged and stopped a 3500 lb boat in it's tracks, and seen the tremendous force an anchor line can exert in an instant... not something you want to be in the way of... for these reasons and many more, I don't think tying a sea anchor to yourself is a good idea. Selfish on my part perhaps, but I like to watch your movies.

Like I said, just my .02¢, but not all armchair.

d

Not a video but a still, hope that counts

Image
Sea Bear and the Otter

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 3:33 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm
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Location: Oakland, California
Couple-O-points to y'all:
No matter where you attach the drogue/sea anchor etc to, it should have a quick release just like you have on a rescue vest or tow belt.
A 300 lb rating for 650 paracord is within range given for that type of cord. Keep in mind that this value is for the bare cord, splices and knots will weaken it!
A 300 lb rating for 15 cones sounds reasonable too, giving you a factor of safety between 2.0 (for 10 lb cone load) to 4.0 ( for a more credible 5 lb per cone). See figure 6 in USCG report for wave generated loading on cones.
Tethering yourself to kayak, paddle leashes etc.: Controversial. The risk is entanglement during a wet exit, especially in wild and wooly conditions! I used to tether my paddle with a coiled paddle leash to the kayak, until told emphatically not to by local sea kayakers. My leg did get mildly snagged once. But many top British sea kayakers feel that you SHOULD use a paddle leash...
Yep, I am on the fence on this since I would like to only have to worry about hanging onto the kayak, not kayak and paddle. However, I would stick to coiled tethers/leashes. In the end it is a trade off.
Definitely carry a rescue knife on you! What if your heavily laden kayak starts to sink?

Chris O.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 4:06 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I love that photo, D-- and I suspect you do, too :-).

How about carrying a spare paddle, instead of tying on the only one you've got? (My Long Haul hull has paddle straps along each side.) None of us want to lose a paddle, but redundancy might be a solution if there is a perceived risk with a paddle leash.

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~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 4:23 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: South Salem, NY
Quote:
I love that photo, D-- and I suspect you do, too :-).

Thanks Chris, it was an unforgettable day.

d

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:09 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 222
DLee wrote:
Doi, same here, no offense intended.

I may be a little armchair captaining for the sea anchor as I've only used them a few times... however, I held a 100 ton Masters ticket for years and drove a Ferry in NY Harbor. But before that I was a charter fishing captain in same said harbor for about 7 years. Fishing primarily the East River, Hell Gate, and the Upper Harbor, anchoring 5 or 6 times a night... so I know a little about anchoring and the myriad ways you can totally screw yourself if you don't do it right... because I think I've made every mistake in the book... at least once.

To get the 100 ton ticket, before I started driving the ferry, I had a minimum of 720 documented days on the water... so after a while I take my knowledge, like you take yours, and think about how a certain problem should or could be solved. It's not always right, but I'm usually in the right ballpark for the game. I've pulled nets that have snagged and stopped a 3500 lb boat in it's tracks, and seen the tremendous force an anchor line can exert in an instant... not something you want to be in the way of... for these reasons and many more, I don't think tying a sea anchor to yourself is a good idea. Selfish on my part perhaps, but I like to watch your movies.

Like I said, just my .02¢, but not all armchair.

d

Not a video but a still, hope that counts

Image
Sea Bear and the Otter


Excellent photo! And my respect for your tremendous experience on the water. I can learn a lot from you and I have quite a few questions about the currents in our neck of the woods.

I sincerely appreciate the concern and I agree with its premise. If the anticipated shock is strong enough to pull me out of the cockpit, probably would damage the frame of the yak too, if attached to any given point.

Anyway, I don't want to drag the argument like a drogue... :) I agree with you and I do not suggest to anybody to attach the drogue line to their body.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:28 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 222
ChrisO wrote:
Couple-O-points to y'all:
No matter where you attach the drogue/sea anchor etc to, it should have a quick release just like you have on a rescue vest or tow belt.
A 300 lb rating for 650 paracord is within range given for that type of cord. Keep in mind that this value is for the bare cord, splices and knots will weaken it!
A 300 lb rating for 15 cones sounds reasonable too, giving you a factor of safety between 2.0 (for 10 lb cone load) to 4.0 ( for a more credible 5 lb per cone). See figure 6 in USCG report for wave generated loading on cones.
Tethering yourself to kayak, paddle leashes etc.: Controversial. The risk is entanglement during a wet exit, especially in wild and wooly conditions! I used to tether my paddle with a coiled paddle leash to the kayak, until told emphatically not to by local sea kayakers. My leg did get mildly snagged once. But many top British sea kayakers feel that you SHOULD use a paddle leash...
Yep, I am on the fence on this since I would like to only have to worry about hanging onto the kayak, not kayak and paddle. However, I would stick to coiled tethers/leashes. In the end it is a trade off.
Definitely carry a rescue knife on you! What if your heavily laden kayak starts to sink?

Chris O.


I tether to the kayak via the PFD quick release and I carry the knife on the PFD, just in case I need to cut a line. I tether the paddle to the life line and I tether everything I have on the deck. Sometimes lots of things. Imagine several cases and bags attached to the deck. And that is controversial too, but I paddle only on multi-day trips and I need my food and toys.

I pay attention to the weather and I try to put on when the weather is friendly. I do not rely on a roll because it is close to impossible to roll with my set-up and if I capsize and need a wet exit the only way to get back in will be sideways... somehow... :) or swim with the yak back to shore... most probably.

Everything on the yak, on the deck and under is waterproof and has positive buoyancy. After a capsize, the yak should stay afloat, or in the worst case scenario, all the tethered stuff should float around the boat. Potential entanglement? Absolutely! I am fully aware of that.

Putting in and raising the sail while still in the breaking surf kept both my hands full and the paddle followed the kayak only because it was tethered. The tethered paddle helped at quick landings too. Usually I throw the paddle away from the yak and extricate myself from the cockpit to cushion the landing and protect the yak from potential impact. Is that the proper thing to do? Probably not... but that's how I do things.

Please understand that I respect all the opinions based on experience and I have a lot of admiration and respect for those who are on the water all the time. I am not here to contradict what was established as proper practice and I don't encourage anybody to follow my procedure. I just feel comfortable with what I am doing and I always learn from (my) mistakes... :)

I apologize to the OP for drifting slightly OT... I may need a larger drogue... :)

Cheers

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http://vimeo.com/channels/travelotherapy


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