Folding Kayaks Forum

The user forum for FoldingKayaks.org
It is currently Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:48 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:43 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 32
Thank you Paul. The other kayaks you mention look great, but since weight is an issue they're less attractive (unless we change our plan and carrying weight becomes less important).
You said the rafts you have experience with are slow draggy pigs :mrgreen: so if Saco isn't recommended for expedition use, why are rafts recommended?
You asked how fast the rivers we're thinking of flow. We got a couple names of people who may know the rivers in the area well, but didn't contact them yet, so don't know the answer on this point at this point. Why is it important in relation to hull shape?
It will be interesting to hear about your experience with your new raft in comparison to your Klepper.

Idc, thank you very much for the link. Looked at it and it seems very interesting. Lately I've been playing around with the idea of making something myself... 10lbs for a 14 footer sounds great! It will take some more concentration than just reading through it, and learning about materials and where to get them (started a very little bit already), but it may be worth it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:59 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 811
Location: atlanta, georgia
Welcome.

There are so many options and no perfect solutions...but the fun is in the journey to find what works best for you. What river are you planning to paddle? Rocks? Rapids? Shells? That all makes a difference. There is a fellow who has made a remarkably light folder but it is only safe on gentle water, he has fabricated a 14 and a 17 footer https://apaddleinmypack.wordpress.com/2 ... s-10lb-ik/
It might be helpful for you to post where you are planning your trip, we will do our best to help with advice.

Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:26 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 32
Thank you G for the welcome! And thank you for the link. Idc posted a similar link to yours, with the same Tim Evans home-made kayaks. It seems very appealing, and maybe a project that could be a lot of fun (besides the hopeful success of a great kayak, it would be a way of constantly thinking about great trips...).

A couple of questions about it:
* Tim Evans says the hull material is very strong but not abrasion resistant. What's the significance of strength in that case?
* The Supai he mentions is unbelievably light. Can I assume it's somewhat more abrasion resistant than his kayak? How much more material does a kayak take than a raft? The question I'm getting at is why not use a material that's more abrasion resistant, even if it will weigh a few more ounces?
(Maybe these questions I should try to find how to ask him as well)

The trip we're thinking of is in Alaska - the Chandalar river, West Fork I think it's called, down toward the Yukon, but maybe try to head up-stream (East Fork) in the direction of Arctic Village before that (if it's not too hard). After that anything else depending on the time. Seemed to us there would be some 20mi. or so of hiking from the road to where we can get to the river (seemed that way on Google Earth, but locals we spoke to couldn't tell us - there are more locals we got numbers of, but didn't contact yet).
Since we're not experienced kayakers (yet...), we're looking to be on easy rivers (maybe until we get more experience and confidence. Easy not meaning physically necessarily, but as far as skill).
That's the tentative plan.

Suggestions are welcome. Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:15 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 811
Location: atlanta, georgia
I have a call later today with Tim to discuss his kayak in more detail. He seems like a very interesting guy, I will follow up if it makes sense and I will also invite him to participate in our forum.
The material he used is Cuben fiber, a space-age (literally) material that is very strong, flexible, and water proof. But it doesn't take well to abrading or cutting forces. It is used as a sail material for very expensive boats, i.e. Americas Cup type.
Sounds like a very ambitious trip you have in mind...talk about off the grid! I have done some paddling in Alaska rivers and, for my piece of mind, I would not rely on Cuben fiber for such a trip. In fact, I would only feel safe with an expedition-type boat like the LongHaul, Klepper, or Feathercraft. Have you thought of having the boats dropped in to your launch site?
There is a very experienced traveler and kayaker on the forum who you may want to reach out to. He is Tsunamichuck and he currently lives in Anchorage.
Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:04 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Cuben fiber is a very heavily-used fabric for ultra-light backpacking equipment. Google the cottage manufacturer "Z-Packs" for one of the most prolific users...

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:26 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am
Posts: 575
Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
Digressing slightly, but if you want to walk with a lot of gear, have you considered a walking trailer? On 16" wheels, towed with a waist strap:
Image

https://www.radicaldesign.com/walking-t ... eller.html

For narrow trails, the wheels can be set inside the frame, giving a wheelbase width of 9". Integral shoulder straps for places where you really have to carry.
I haven't researched how easy it is to dismantle it to stow in a boat.

I haven't used one of these, but I have a bike trailer from the same maker, and it's a well-designed piece of kit. If the terrain can possibly allow it, I'm always in favour of putting a load on wheels rather than on my back.

Good luck with your research, and please do report back on your trip.

Mary

_________________
Not in Oxford any more...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:17 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
Hi Mary, nice to see you, and nice to know you're still perusing the forum. Still paddling?

That's a really great idea that cart. It appears to lose some of it's carrying ability when the wheels are brought inside... a very heavy load with the narrow wheel base on a rocky trail could be an exercise in frustration... but you never know. It also looks like there might be a way to balance a complete kayak on this cart while still having the pack in place below... or throw the pack on top of the boat... either way when the handle is folded down it doesn't look too different than the cart I made from a jogging stroller. And boy do I love those big wheels.

I agree with the idea of wheels whenever possible.

Cheers!

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:54 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 32
Thanks G (not G thanks;)) It would be great to hear first hand about ideas for building kayaks from Tim!

The trip does sound ambitious. We've been thinking of a water trip in Alaska for a long time, and wanted something "off the beaten trail", long, but that didn't require us to be very experienced kayakers.
[I have some wilderness experience (packing and hiking out for a week or two at a time), and my brother, my partner for the idea, has commando training and experience (including being a natural and now professional [I guess] navigator). We'll do our homework before (if - I hope we do...) this trip or a different one/s (finding the right water craft is part of it).]
The Kayaks you mentioned look like they'd be great, the only problem is having to carry them (for me the problem would be the carrying together with the camping gear, for my brother it would be waiting for me...). The drop-off idea sounds nice, but I don't think is possible.
I'll look up tsunamichuck, and try to contact him. Thanks.

Thanks Chris (just noticed your name on the bottom of your messages) for the site. Looks interesting.

Thank you Mary for the wheels idea and D for your insight. We don't know what the terrain to the river is like yet, but unlikely there's a trail, so wheels may actually be an exercise in frustration. But worth remembering when/if we can find out about the terrain before hand. The trip is planned for next or maybe even the following summer, but will certainly post about it if/when it happens.

I'm still curious why people don't recommend the Saco as a good compromise (seems that way to me from research in front of the screen... but not from experience). I saw reports (may be biased by sellers?) that its tracking and speed are pretty good, and another that it's a good boat to fish from (which is somewhat important to us).
Reports on the Kurrent (other light-weight kayak I came across) say it's fabric is somewhat delicate, so less attractive.
Maybe Tim can have good ideas for a good tailored-home made kayak... The idea is very attractive to me! A month and a half of mostly free time now should probably be a good start.

Thank you everyone for the ideas and info!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:16 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am
Posts: 575
Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
DLee wrote:
Hi Mary, nice to see you, and nice to know you're still perusing the forum. Still paddling?

Hi Dennis, yes, I still look in on the forum from time to time. I don't paddle so much since I moved here. My local river, the Nith, is less paddle-friendly than the Thames at Oxford where I used to live. After a day's rain, the Nith runs faster than I want to be out on. When levels are down, it's popular with salmon fishermen, and I don't want to trigger any paddler/ angler conflict. If I do go out, these days I use a packraft:

Image

That's a standard shopping trolley with a foldable frame. Raft on top, while the bag holds paddle, PFD, sandals and any other bits and pieces I want to take.

When ready to go, the trolley folds up and gets tied on the bow:

Image


Quote:
That's a really great idea that cart. It appears to lose some of it's carrying ability when the wheels are brought inside... a very heavy load with the narrow wheel base on a rocky trail could be an exercise in frustration... but you never know.

I think you're right about that. If I had to use one with the wheels in the narrow configuration, I think I'd push it in front of me like a wheelbarrow; it would probably be easier to balance that way. "Narrow" might be helpful for getting through gates in bus / train stations though, if you were trying to do your whole trip by public transport.

Mary

_________________
Not in Oxford any more...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:39 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Brilliant! Which raft are you using, Mary? That looks like one of the packrafts that we have been discussing.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:07 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 441
HI Mary,
Good to hear from you and good see you're still getting out on the water. Packrafts seem to be growing in popularity (judging solely from recent mentions of them here and on Song of the Paddle). Would love to hear your views and opinions of them. I was particularly interested to hear that Nortik have a cheaper/more affordable one coming out.
All the best,
Ian


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:27 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am
Posts: 575
Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
Brillythekid, sorry for diverting your thread. I expect you realise that, whatever boat option you go with, you should try some short local trips carrying all your gear, to really understand the practicalities, before you set off into the wilderness.

Hi Chris and Ian,

I have the Alpacka Yukon, the medium-sized model. Mine has the touring spraydeck; there's another option for a whitewater spraydeck which is more waterproof. You can see my spraydeck in the picture above; it zips across the front, along the right side and round the back. The left side is secured by velcro, and would be the quick-release if you needed it. Spraydeck keeps paddle splash out of the boat, but for the short, gentle paddles I've been doing, I mostly don't use it at all.

A year ago I came into some unexpected cash. I used half of it sensibly, the other half went for this new toy. Not having a car, portability is the most important feature of a boat for me, and that's what packrafts excel at.

Okay, it's short and wide, it's no speed merchant and it yaws with each paddle stroke, but no worse than other short inflatables I've used. I wouldn't want to paddle against much of a current, or against a stiff breeze. But it seems quite robustly made, and of course it's extremely stable. I think it's most suited to downriver trips, or maybe short hops across narrow channels to reach places that are otherwise inaccessible.

I read a report on the internet (and sorry, but I can't find the link just now) about two men doing a multi-day river trip in Australia. One had an Alpacka, one was in a "pool toy" cheap inflatable. The latter had a lot of problems with his boat losing pressure or just being a pig to paddle. Sometimes he'd get out and carry it for a while, for a break. It did make the point that there is a real difference between the quality product and the cheapo. But as the concept is spreading, there may now be some mid-range boats that will do the job without being as expensive as the Alpacka or Feathercraft products.

If you go on the Song of the Paddle forum http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/forum.php
and search blogs by Crow, he has the same model packraft as me, (as well as other boats) and he takes it to much more interesting places - on the sea, up mountains etc.

Mary

_________________
Not in Oxford any more...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:07 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 32
No worries Mary. A detour, or completely new route is usually interesting :)
Thanks for your concern/suggestion to try it all out before setting out on the trail. It's a good idea (for me at least - the weaker [older-wiser? older...] link of the party).
Your shopping trolley system looks awesome!!
From posts I see on rafts, including your last one about your raft, they seem super practical for many purposes but not so much for traveling long distances (on the water).
So still searching for the answer...

Gbellware, did you get to talk with Tim? Any suggestions?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:24 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 811
Location: atlanta, georgia
I spoke with Tim Evans on Friday night and learned a lot about his design. Sounds like the 17 foot kayak is a bit tougher than his original 14 foot design but still not practical for Alaska river trip...but stay tuned. I am flying out to Vancouver next week to meet with him and discuss further. Tim is a very creative and talented designer and fabricator of several innovations in the lightweight travel gear family, and he does it all to support his passion for traveling around the world, mostly on foot. Fascinating!

g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:49 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 32
Gbellware, Sounds terrific!!
With your and Idc's links about Tim Evans, and looking a little at designs on the web I came up with some ideas myslef, but don't know if they're practical.
I'd love to hear more about what you learn from Tim Evans!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Mootoozoo


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group