Brian from Alberta

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BrianMcD

Post by BrianMcD »

Will,
I posted the same time as you. My measurements are in metric. We use metric here, just to confuse the Americans :wink:

nice photos.

Brian

westcoastwill

Post by westcoastwill »

Thanks for the dimensions, i will check for a rudder setup and get back as sooon as i know what will fit.

servus

Willi

westcoastwill

Post by westcoastwill »

Hi Brian,

have checked trough the cache of folding kayak spare parts, here is what i have found:

Image

Image

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this is a rudder blade made by pouch from my rz 85, will fit any of the "eastern" german kayak brands, like pouch, pax ecetera.. "western" german klepper does not look much different, i am afraid at 4 cm inside and 8.5 cm outside it will not fit, unless you are a skilled handyman with the tools and make it fit.

here is a photo from a recent ebay auction for the whole setup:

Image

if you are not in a hurry, i keep an eye open for the original parts, they will show up on ebay sooner or later, a whole fürst tandem kayak was sold recently for a real bargain, found hanging from the roof of a barn.

or i can ship the rudder over, if you want.

i hoped we can solve your rudder problem today, but it looks like we need more time. sorry about that.

servus,

willi

BrianMcD

Post by BrianMcD »

Willi,

I have a couple of friends who are machinists. One of them commutes from Newfoundland to Alberta every 3 weeks for 3 weeks of work! I believe he is back right now. I will show him a picture and see if he thinks he could modify the attachments. Do you think the attachment point on my hull would be at the correct height above water for the pouch rudder? And do you know what kind of metal it is made from?

You mentioned a Furst boat on ebay. There does not seem to be much reference to them anywhere on the internet. Do you think I would find an original equipment rudder somewhere?

I really appreciate you taking the time to help.

thanks
Brian

Alm

Post by Alm »

Do you think the attachment point on my hull would be at the correct height above water for the pouch rudder? And do you know what kind of metal it is made from?
Brian, I didn't want to comment since no longer have american version of Klepper-style boat (Longhaul), and don't remember the distance between the hinges, but in Klepper (not sure about Pouch) they have a different pattern - 3 hinges in total, VS 2 hinges in your boat. Here is the photo of Klepper head (same as LH) from Tord Erikson album:
Image
The pattern isn't crucial, but the size is. If the size is right, you'll be able to fit 3-hinged head into your 2 hinges, cutting the 3rd hinge off. But this isn't desirable, as 3 hinges on the head are there for purpose - cutting one off, you'll increase the stress on remaining hinges. In the worst case scenario, if the 3-hinged "head" (the part holding the blade) from Pouch or Klepper doesn't fit in your 2 hinges, you would have to CNC-machine the rudder "head" - all these parts are aluminum. Chances are, LH head will be cheaper than Klepper's, though Pouch parts are inexpensive too.
You could cobble it out yourself of few plates and pieces of aluminum, but it should better be a single-piece part.

The blade in most rudders is 1/8" aluminum sheet, you can cut any shape and length you like, or modify the existing blade (which is less likely, - most of them are barn-door design, disproportionately short at the given radius). I've modified slightly the existing blade of LH http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/album70 - it was of the right proportions, vertical and narrow, but I wanted higher angle above the water in raised position (partly inspired by Tord's experiments), and this wasn't a difficult modification. In the lowered position the blade should be as vertical and as narrow as possible. The blade is usually held in the "head" by some sort or rivet or a 1/4" screw with lock-nut, so replacing it isn't a problem.

BrianMcD

Post by BrianMcD »

Hi Alex,
I appreciate all the help I can get. Next week I will be heading up to Edmonton to take care of some (divorce) business, and to visit my kids. Being from Vancouver, do you know anyone in Edmonton or Calgary, who has experience outfitting and modifying these type of kayaks? I visited the Klepper dealership in Calgary last year. They were quite helpfull until they identified my boat as a "pirated" kayak, and not a klepper :roll: They seemed friendly enough but very busy and very expensive.

As my kayak is old and I am novice to sea kayaking (intermediate whitewater), I want to make the boat reasonably comfortable and seaworthy for short day trips. If I can't find an OEM rudder kit, I would like to purchase a used one that is closest to the original, and modifiy it, with the help of a machinest, to work properly. I know it won't be as strong and reliable as one with 3 "horns", but hopefully it would work. If I get into serious sea kayaking here in NL, I will join a club and do lessons in a hardshell.

There is a klepper blade and yoke on ebay right now, but I will wait until I can find a complete assembly that is closer in fit. I would need the "head" to modifiy or as a template to make a new one.

any help is appreciated
Brian

Alm

Post by Alm »

Minor correction: parts are aluminum, except for yoke and vertical pin - these are stainless.

>Being from Vancouver, do you know anyone in Edmonton or Calgary, who has experience outfitting and modifying these type of kayaks?

The cheapest way to go is to find a small metal shop doing various non-kayaking industrial and commercial prototypes, repairs, custom orders etc - with a cheap machinist. Once they have programmed CNC machine, it costs next to nothing to make these parts in numbers - but you only need one. So it may cost about $100 for the "head" (yoke might fit from Klepper or LH, or it might not). OTH, the whole assembly including blade will cost about $150 from LH (don't remember), and a bit more for absoultely identical "old style" rudder from Klepper (there is a difference between the old and new Klepper rudder models).

Another option, which I wouldn't discard, is to try and install Klepper aluminum moulding (hinges) on your stern - bring your skin to Calgary or give them the dimensions and ask. May cost again $100 or more (Klepper parts are costly), but after that you'll be able to use standard rudders by Klepper or LH.

Again, this stern molding by LH is absolutely identical to Klepper's (at least for "old-style" rudder), so if the one from Klepper fits, the one from LH also fits (people installed it at home, there is a screw holding it to the skin, see the article here at the forum somehwere).
For small rivers and calm lakes you don't need a rudder at all, not to worry.

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chrstjrn
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Posts: 1718
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)

Post by chrstjrn »

If you find a rudder but not the pedals, don't worry-- you can usually rig better-working pedals for yourself than are sold commercially.
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.

westcoastwill

Post by westcoastwill »

Hi Brian,

If you want to go for a Klepper rudder, i can help you there: i have an old T9, just checked the skin when i was looking for the rudder, it is hard like a board of plywood and pretty useless.

however, the rudder hinges ( the same as on Alex´s photos) are still very good, it would be no problem if you want this parts.

i may have a Klepper rudder also, but the frame and all parts are at my girlfriends place near salzburg, i will check after the weekend, ok?

I am turning the frame into a nice bookshelf, by the way :shock:

have also an old Pouch RZ 85 hull, you could have the rudder hinges there too, the only thing what i dont have is the rudder yoke, that connects the rudder, vertical pin and cables. but it is allways avaliable on ebay.

the only problem so far, as i recon, if you are going to remove the rudder hinges from your Fürst, it might leave some nasty holes, the RZ 85 hinges sits lower than the Fürst, you might need to patch it up again, if you decide to do it, i can also sned some Pouch hull patches too.

A challenge for your friend, the machinist, would be attaching the Pouch hinges onto the existing Fürst hinges and so it would save a lot of work on the hull. :P

I will keep an eye on ebay auctions too, have requested additional dimensions for this rudder setup:

http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... &rd=1&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... &rd=1&rd=1

Another, more expensive option would be to buy a new setup from the German company Zoelzer:

ttp://www.zoelzer.de/content.php?Produkte%2FK ... rubrik=109

a 600mm blade would cost 150 euros.

as for shipping: i am an employee of an international express carrier, so shipping is no problem, i get an employees discount. :wink:

servus

Willi

westcoastwill

Post by westcoastwill »

Just got a mail from viburum123, the seller of the rudder set up on ebay, the iside dimensions is 5,6cm, would that fit outside of your rudder hinges?

i think, it does not matter wether the rudder is attached inside or outside of the hinges.

servus,

Willi

BrianMcD

Post by BrianMcD »

sorry for not getting back sooner. I think the inside 5.6 will fit well on the outside 5.4 cm horns. I will confirm measurements this weekend. It would be best if I can use the existing stern fittings. If not I will definitely look at the option of changing it.

We are preparing for my brother's funeral on Monday.

you guys are great for helping me.

westcoastwill

Post by westcoastwill »

Hi Brian!

first of all, i would like to express my condolences for the loss of your brother. it is a hard time for you and i hope it helps a little that there are people out there who feel with you.

as for the rudder, there is lots of stuff on ebay this days, a original, complete klepper set up, for example showed up yesterday:

http://cgi.ebay.at/Klepper-Aerius-II-St ... dZViewItem

you see, there is no need to hurry things, i will keep an eye open for original fürst parts on the european market, if you need the Klepper or Pouch Rudder hardware for the hull, just let me know.

that auction for the other rudder is also still active, if you want to bid, you are welcome to ship it to my place, i am an employee of a international express carrier and can ship at a real bargain to you,

yours,

willi

BrianMcD

i'm back

Post by BrianMcD »

Hi Westcoastwill,

I'm Back! Funeral over. Everyone back to Alberta. I went to Alberta as well and since returned to Newfoundland..without my computer. Now I have another one.

I am still interested in getting a rudder and foot paddles. I tested my boat in the Humber River last week and it is in good shape. Two hours of paddling and it took on no water.

let me know if you see anything available. I am reading to purchase anytime.

Thanks
Brian

Image

Photo of Northeast end of Deer Lake.

BrianMcD

Post by BrianMcD »

Do you know the dimensions on this one?

http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... ngItemList

BrianMcD

Post by BrianMcD »


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