Sailing Rigs

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Franz

Sailing Rigs

Post by Franz »

Any general comments or impressions on sailing a kayak?

Are Kleppers the best boat for saling?

Alm

Post by Alm »

Franz; general impression, in a nutshell, was given by Ralph Diaz in his last edition of "Complete Folding Kayaker", and I agree with it. In approximate wording, he said that kayak is not a sailboat and can't be, speaking of performance, but sitting that low, close to water, you can still have fun and impression of a good sailing.

The best small boat for sailing is a sailing dinghy, or, in the absence thereof, a canoe - if you meant monohull sailing. Double Klepper, being closer to the above than other kayaking hulls, might be the best indeed - speaking of monohull large-size sail rig again. Folbot GII, btw, with hull shape almost identical to AEII, can be another such "best boat", and at lower cost (in the USA), which arguably makes it better sailing kayak than AEII in the class, say, 50 sf and more, utilising up to 2 masts. (There are no classes in sailing kayaks, so this is an arbitrary reference point).

For monohull upwind day sailing you can have smaller upwind sail and smaller hull - AEI, Folbot Yukon, some wide short Nautiraid (I forgot which one).

And then there are outrigger upwind rigs by Balogh, that convert any kayak into a trimaran, thus making hull shape and size less important (still, the shorter and the lighter - the better, of course). Mark Balogh for day sailing with his sail and outrigger prefers using a hardshell surf boat - not any folder.

This question probably needs to be more specific - day sailing or expedition sailing, monohull or outrigger(s), or may be just auxiliary power to augment your paddling on long trips (in the last scenario, it should be a small downwind rig) etc. If you like day sailing and don't plan much beyond this, you may register in some inexpensive day sailing club and/or get a storage space near water, and use a sailing dinghy. This will be easier and more efficient than trying to make a kayak do what it isn't designed to :-) ...

Franz

Thanks Alex

Post by Franz »

Thanks Alex.

I just purchased a real sailboat (Islander 21), but it is an old boat. I thought i would fix it up and sail it on the bay here -- S.F. Bay always has wind. Anyway, i am shocked by how much time and money it is taking to fix her up. For the money i'm spending, i could buy a new Klepper and sail rig!

Also, looking at an inflatable catamaran. They look fun and fast. Also, have this crazy idea of making my folder into a kayakamaran. There's a company that sells rigs that one straps to one's kayak and a second kayak (as a sort of out rigger).

Alm

Post by Alm »

With sailboats it's like with skis - you can find a pair for $5 in a second-hand clothing store, complete with bindings and poles (or even for free in a back alley). But if some spring is missing in bindings, you'll be appaled to see how much new bindings cost, not including installation.
If you estimate the expenses to be over $3000, - it might be easier to find another boat. Small sailing dinghy, like Pram, Optimist, or Laser, I think you can get one under $1000 complete with working sail. Sometimes it needs a lot of work and some parts, but with rigs that simple you can't spend more than $100 or $200 even when buying the most expensive cleats, blocks etc. Hardware prices vary wildly - some small pin may cost from $9 to $35 - same pin, different brands. It may need DIY hull work, but this is your work and your time, materials itlself (epoxy, fiberglass, screws etc) are cheap.

I've looked at some inflatable sailing catamarans on-line, - there is some UK model and another one in Russia, they are heavy, bulky when folded, expensive, and take a bit of time to assemble. If you'll get stuck in the middle of the bay with no wind, this is the worst craft that can be. It is darn useless to paddle alone.

2 kayaks into catamaran - I don't know... Unless there are 2 people that need 2 kayaks anyway, you'll have to maintain and assemble 2 kayaks all the time.

john allsop
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sailing rigs

Post by john allsop »

Have you seen the Klepper VARIO CAT, now thats spending money, two boats are required and then you buy the rig, i forget how many thousand it will cost but where i live houses might be cheaper.

Franz

I like

Post by Franz »

I like the idea of a kayakamaran for camping, because one kayak ( a simple inflatable?) could hold a lot of gear / supplies. The main problem with a kayakamaran is that it can't be paddled. At least the two designs i've seen: Klepper Vario Cat, and the sailboatstogo kayakamaran. Now maybe the sqare frame could be made wider so that one could paddle such a contraption... :lol:

Alm

Post by Alm »

Franz, how long expedtions you are planning to make? I've just completed a 2-week trip in Kahuna (a month ago, and report is overdue, my apologies). There was no cubic inch of volume to spare, but I carried all the food for 2 weeks, 20 liters of water and bulky 7 lb desalinator, full-length Thermarest and full-length foam pad (I like it soft), tent and tarp with its own separate poles, cart, main stove with propane, back-up Zipp stove, swimming fins, and there was even a room for a small floatation bag. My weight and size is same as yours, as I recall - (155 lbs?), and Kahuna was overloaded by 20-25 lbs in the first few days, which I didn't notice. The only items on the deck were fins and items that had to be there - spare paddle and small deckbag with snack, maps and water bottle. The weather was warm, though, so I didn't carry parka, but change of dry clothes and some fleece are always with me. Though, I have to say that unloading and especailly loading was a meticulously painful procedure, taking about an hour every time when I moved the camp (I mean, loading only - not the breakfast, coffee etc) - luckily I didn't do this every day.

If it were a sailing trip, then I would've had less room, because of the mast, but with only one 10-liter bag with fresh water (I had 2 of them), this would've beeen possible. In reality, I carried 3 bags of water on 10-day trips in Kahuna with sail rig, hoping that amas would add some floatation - but I think amas merely prevented the overloaded hull from immersing too deep, at the cost of increased water resistance to amas, because they were immersed deeper. 10-14 days trip with fresh water requires K1, - not Kahuna. Or MK1.

Franz

Re: Sailing Rigs

Post by Franz »

Hey Alex.

Thanks for the info. I can carry enough gear and supplies for two weeks also -- on the Fujita 500. However, the boat is loaded down. Another way for me to go is to tow an inflatable (Innova Solar II) loaded with most of the gear and supplies. This works well for me. It is a little harder to paddle than a loaded down boat, but not much harder. Also, packing and unpacking is much easier and faster.

So i have the idea of connecting the inflatable as a sort of outriger canoe. With a cat style sail rig. But i would need to be able to paddle such a vessle, as well as sail it. The designs i've seen for kayakamarans don't allow for paddling. (Klepper Vario Cat, and Sailboatstogo Kayakamaran.) Need a design that uses outrigers...

F.

Alm

Re: Sailing Rigs

Post by Alm »

Franz; you went now from the concept of day sailing in the bay where there is always some wind, to expedition sailing (I assume, in areas where there is not always enough wind). These are different things. For the former a sailing dinghy is the best solution if you have a storage near water, for the latter - it could be a kayak with a sail rig, or a canoe with a sail rig. If it has to be portable by air, then it is a folder with sail rig (kayak or canoe, but folding canoes are not very common).

I can't tell anything about your concept of "kayakamaran" with inflatable used as an outrigger - I can't recall anybody doing this. Some doubts that I have:
1) inflatable creates a lot more resistance to wind and water than a proper "ama".
2) Inflatable is not as roomy as you think - fat baloons take a lot of room.
3) inflatables don't usually have a good spraydeck system that would protect your cargo and the boat from getting swamped - it has to cover all the boat.

If Fujita 500 is not roomy enough for 2-week trips, and is not easily adaptable to outrigger sail rig, I don't know why not taking a tested route and get an FC K1 (with 32-36 sf Balogh sail), or a GII (with 56 sf schooner Balogh rig), or Klepper AEII with either monohull S4 rig (if you like challenge), or again 56 sf Balogh schooner. There will be plenty of room for solo sailor in GII/AEII (there is a lady who even slept in her GII schooner), and you can paddle an outrigger GII/AEII with canoe paddle, when there is no wind.

I personally am not ready for an outrigger schooner yet - I prefer less cargo room, longer loading and TAD compromised sailing with 32 sf outrigger sail, but faster paddling when I do have to paddle it. Besides, it is a pain to fly with a heavy schooner, and a pain to pull it ashore or launch when shores are steep, rocky or unprotected. Besides, even when you get a cheap used GII or AEII, it will cost you a fortune to rig it with Balogh schooner.

Franz

Re: Sailing Rigs

Post by Franz »

Alex,

I'm kind of greedy: i would like to both sail the Bay and kayak/sail camp.

The inflatable holds a lot of gear. It is similar to a Sunny -- basically an inflatable canoe. Put all the gear in dry bags so everything stays dry.

I notice the Klepper sail rigs use lee boards instaed of outriggers. I'm wondering about those....

Alm

Re: Sailing Rigs

Post by Alm »

Yes, Kleppers use 2 small leeboards rather than one long leeboard of Balogh rig (or a center-board of sailing dinghy). These small boards of Klepper don't work as an outrigger (i.e. providing a balance), and don't expect them to.

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chrstjrn
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Re: Sailing Rigs

Post by chrstjrn »

Yes-- Franz, I think you are misunderstanding that leeboards and outriggers have completely different functions. Outriggers stabilize. You can not sail, under most circumstances, without something to prevent side-slipping-- such as a leeboard.
Chris T.
Klymit Packraft
In storage in the US:
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind
'64 Klepper T12
Early '90s Old Town Canoe
Previous:
'04 Pakboat Puffin II
'05 Swift (prototype)
'84 Hobie 16.

Franz

Re: Sailing Rigs

Post by Franz »

Right, thanks.

So then, does Klepper use outriggers for balance? I don't see outriggers in their sailing pics. And, does the Balogh system use something (leeboards) for side slipping?

The boat (kayakamaran) I'm thinking of most closely resembles a proa, and or outrigger canoe. Both of which can be paddled and sailed. But instead of an ama, i would use another kayak.

Alm

Re: Sailing Rigs

Post by Alm »

Franz wrote: So then, does Klepper use outriggers for balance? I don't see outriggers in their sailing pics.
No outriggers. Klepper rig is a "low-aspect", i.e. with a low Center of Effort, i.e. the tipping moment is not as strong as in tall Balogh sail, given the same wind force. But.... A month ago in Exumas I saw Klepper AEII rigged with Balogh sail, no outriggers. They have very steady tradewinds over there. Haven't seen a single gust in 2 weeks - either steady wind, or no wind.. All it takes to capsize is one sudden gust.
And, does the Balogh system use something (leeboards) for side slipping?
Yes, sir. The best I've ever seen. Long and hydrofoil shape.
The boat (kayakamaran) I'm thinking of most closely resembles a proa, and or outrigger canoe. Both of which can be paddled and sailed. But instead of an ama, i would use another kayak.
May be folks at Yahoo Sailing Canoe Group will fetch in some ideas. Including Balogh himself - he frequents that forum.

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