I can't tack

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vangelis
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I can't tack

Post by vangelis »

I have dine some paddling and some sailing now in my Klepper Aerius II Quatro.
I use the S4 rig, no outriggers.
When sailing in wind up to low three BF I manage to tack the boat. I can do it if I am solo or with my wife in the front seat.
It is not a sailing boat tack with a fluid movement changing the course and getting the wind from the oposite side...It is more like a stop with the bow pointing the wind and a slow recovery of speed at the other side...
I do come to the tack building speed, opening the sailing angle and then turning the rudder sharply and bringing the sails as in as it gets to face the wind and when saills stop to function I take the wind from the other side not insisting on a close angle course- like in a sailboat- but building up speed with a wider approach before closing to the wind.
When the wind picks up a bit to low 4 BF, it looks like the boat refuses to tack...
I tried all the tricks in the book..
Weight distribution was ok as I was not solo.
I put the leeboards bridge as close to the mast as possible.
I even instructed the front person to raise the leeboarss when we came to a halt and I counter steered.
I dont know how long I should wait in this position, but I had the feeling the boat was not moving backwards to tack ...
It is just not tacking...
I did not have a paddle ready to help but the balance and sail handling requirements at this wind force would not allow me to handle a paddle ...

Any suggestions?

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chrstjrn
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Re: I can't tack

Post by chrstjrn »

Do you have a jib? I am not sure if this would work or help, but have you considered backing the jib to bring the bow across? "Backing" means pulling it across so that it is contrary to the way it "should" be. This isn't a solution, only a workaround-- it sounds like you simply aren't carrying enough speed to tack-- not too much of a surprise since we are sailing boats that are inferior to real sailboats (for sailing, at least).
Chris T.
Klymit Packraft
In storage in the US:
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind
'64 Klepper T12
Early '90s Old Town Canoe
Previous:
'04 Pakboat Puffin II
'05 Swift (prototype)
'84 Hobie 16.

Romainpek

Re: I can't tack

Post by Romainpek »

Read this automatic google translation:

http://209.85.171.104/translate_c?hl=en ... kg_faixm3Q

The writer increased his rudder then added a mizzen mast.

Alm

Re: I can't tack

Post by Alm »

Romainpek wrote:Read this automatic google translation:

http://209.85.171.104/translate_c?hl=en ... kg_faixm3Q

The writer increased his rudder then added a mizzen mast.
They also moved leeboards farther aft, to match the new Center of Effort location.

Romainpek

Re: I can't tack

Post by Romainpek »

That's a good point... moving the boards aft should help tacking anyway.

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vangelis
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Re: I can't tack

Post by vangelis »

chrstjrn wrote:Do you have a jib? I am not sure if this would work or help, but have you considered backing the jib to bring the bow across? "Backing" means pulling it across so that it is contrary to the way it "should" be. This isn't a solution, only a workaround-- it sounds like you simply aren't carrying enough speed to tack-- not too much of a surprise since we are sailing boats that are inferior to real sailboats (for sailing, at least).
Yes I do have a Jib. I have tried it but it did not work...

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vangelis
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Re: I can't tack

Post by vangelis »

Romainpek wrote:That's a good point... moving the boards aft should help tacking anyway.
Now I am confused....

I read in a post here that I should move the leeboards as forward as possible....this is what I did ...

If I move them backeards will the tacking be easier...even if i drift more duriing a close course..

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gbellware
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Re: I can't tack

Post by gbellware »

Vangelis,

I have been watching for responses to your question, as I have a similar challenge with my A2. As a self-taught "sailor" I have just approached this by trial and error. I can get my Klepper to tack about 50% of the time, regardless of wind force, and so far it is a complete mystery as to when I will successfully cross the wind and when I will get locked in irons. My solution is ham-fisted and I am sure laughable by the real sailors here. When my tack fails I just slacken the sheets and let the drag on the sails force me backwards. I then reverse-rudder, like you would in a power boat, and then begin to take in on the sheets and correct the rudder on the opposite tack. It can be a little hairy in high winds but it works for me.

Having said that, I wonder if the shape of your quattro hull makes any difference in your Klepper's ability to turn quickly enough? Have you tried only inflating the upper sponsons? Just a thought.

Best,
g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Kleppers, A1 Expedition and carbon Quattro
Easy Riders, 18.6 and 17
Lots of BSD sails
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor

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chrstjrn
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Re: I can't tack

Post by chrstjrn »

Just to contradict myself, I think Pomainpek is probably right. I think my Balogh leeboard is a good deal aft of the Klepper leeboards (mine's just aft of the front seatback). I don't have any problems tacking, although my boat is still pig-slow despite having what is supposedly the optimum sailing rig available.
Chris T.
Klymit Packraft
In storage in the US:
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind
'64 Klepper T12
Early '90s Old Town Canoe
Previous:
'04 Pakboat Puffin II
'05 Swift (prototype)
'84 Hobie 16.

Alm

Re: I can't tack

Post by Alm »

vangelis wrote:
Romainpek wrote:That's a good point... moving the boards aft should help tacking anyway.
Now I am confused....

I read in a post here that I should move the leeboards as forward as possible....this is what I did ...
If you read that translated German article - they had to move the boards aft because their Center of Effort moved aft after they've added a mizzen mast. With a single sail the CE is where the mast is, and this is where the board should be as well. This will provide the best (i.e. minimal) lee drift at close courses.

Chris is using 2 masts, so his CE is somewhere in between, and it sounds like he is using 2 locations of leeboards simultaneously - original Klepper pair and single long Balogh board. So it's hard to make conclusions based on such configuration - what works for him, may not work for you.

Besides, I suspect that best tacking and best angle on upwind course might requirte a different location of leeboard than the best tacking, - with straight sailing it has to be were CE is, and during the tack - at some other place. Especially with schooner, where CE is formed by 2 sails, and one of them is depowered sooner than another one during the tack, which moves the CE to a new location. This is just my assumption, - I'm a self-taught sailor too, as many other here.

Romainpek

Re: I can't tack

Post by Romainpek »

I also do not have clear views about the best all around position for the boards, but if problem number one is tacking, then they should be moved aft a little I believe.
With a single sail the CE is where the mast is
In fact, the Center of effort is not located at the mast position but is rather the center of the sail. Please see http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwate ... /index.htm

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chrstjrn
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Re: I can't tack

Post by chrstjrn »

Alm wrote:Chris is using 2 masts, so his CE is somewhere in between, and it sounds like he is using 2 locations of leeboards simultaneously - original Klepper pair and single long Balogh board. So it's hard to make conclusions based on such configuration - what works for him, may not work for you.
I'm sorry if I was unclear: I have only ever used the one position for the one Balogh leeboard. I don't have a Klepper leeboard(s). With both one sail and two, I have only ever had the board in the one position I described.
Chris T.
Klymit Packraft
In storage in the US:
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind
'64 Klepper T12
Early '90s Old Town Canoe
Previous:
'04 Pakboat Puffin II
'05 Swift (prototype)
'84 Hobie 16.

Alm

Re: I can't tack

Post by Alm »

In fact, the Center of effort is not located at the mast position but is rather the center of the sail.
Yes - I don't know why I said it was at the mast. Probably was thinking about Balogh rig for FC - where leeboard is sitting on the outrigger crossbar, which in turn is either coupled with the mast via "mast partner". In Klepper with a single mast in the bow collar leeboard is close to the mast (about 1 ft or so). CE should be close to CLR (center of lateral resistance). Leeboard creates most of CLR, but not all of it, because the hull itself has CLR somewhere in the middle, plus rudder adds/shifts CLR a little towards the stern (sans leeboard). So it looks like leeboard should be placed a lttile bit fore of the CE, then the resulting CLR will be under the CE. In a Klepper with a single mast in bow collar the leeboard is more-less under the CE. In schooners Balogh-Klepper and Balogh-GII I often see the outrigger (and leeboard) placed close to the aft mast (probably for purposes of seating and paddling comfort, especially with 2 people), and this results in the CLR way aft of the CE, and then leeboard should be moved fore.

Kapitän von Klepper

Re: I can't tack

Post by Kapitän von Klepper »

I've been working on this problem for some time:
Solutions:
:?: Add more weight to the forward of the mast. This one is somewhat OK, but is a complete pain. It's OK if you are camping and need the water, but a pain if you are only going out for a few hours. The real problem with this solution is 70 lbs in the front of the boat tends to cause the bow to plow. It also means 70lbs extra if you are in tidal areas and need to take your boat past high tide.
:?: Move the heavier person forward. I've had limited success sitting as far forward as possible when solo. I can't seem to squeeze into the front position if double. :?
:?: :!: I've found that if you strike the jib, the boat gets such a weather helm that you almost can't sail more downwind than beam reach. :? This is mainly because the boat's centre of effort moves back when the jib is struck. Because of this discovery I'm seriously contemplating installing a furler for the jib so I can easily control it's size. For lengthy upwind sailing, I'm assuming a smaller jib is better. It's quite possible the stock becomes the Klepper equivalent of a #2 Genoa and therefore is better for downwind sailing.
:arrow: I've found better results with tacking if I go to beam reach first gain speed and whip into the irons. Counter steering helps, but so does having a full load. Kleppers handle much better with several pounds of camping gear. I've attained some real miraculous speeds in my boat at beam reach. Calculations of between 8 - 10 knots. I'm thinking it would be interesting to see if the Quatro would effect the hull shape enough to give it even a higher hull speed. :?:
:arrow: I've also considered a mizzen, but only after I've really solved my hiking seat experimentations. The extra 2 metres of sail could be a real hand full, -that would make 7 or 8 total.

-Andreas

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vangelis
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Re: I can't tack

Post by vangelis »

Thank you everybody.

Since I posted my last post I can not connect to the forum...from my laptop.

I can not understand what the problem is since I connect to all other sites. When connecting to foldingkayaks, it looks like the explorer goes in to a big delay mentioning in the bottom line that xxx Items remaining. WHen I press any link to a forum topic I get the server not found screen ...

I am in the office now and communicating with my office computer but unfortunatelly I do not have the time to discuss from here... :roll:

I hope my connecting problem will be somehow resolved so I may participate in this very interesting conversation from my laptop when at home.

I just wanted to let you know I did not abandon the subject, I just have problems connecting to the forum...
Thanks for your answers.

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