Schooner K1 - sort of

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Alm

Schooner K1 - sort of

Post by Alm »

I have 32 sf BSD sail on K1, with mast through the aft hatch. This idea was implemented and published in all the details by Tony Niilus a while ago http://www.geocities.com/niilus/, and probably works for any FC boat. I tested it first on my Big Kahuna, and now merely adapted the parts for K1.

Benefits of having the main sail aft:
1) Perfect paddling with the the outrigger on. Paddle clears the aka (crossbar) completely, especially if installed as Tony and I did this - at the fore end of the stern hatch. Mark Balogh has a similar aft version for Kahuna and K1, but in his version the mast goes through the special hole between the stern hatch and the cockpit, and this doesn't provide such a good clearance of the paddle.

2) Decent upwind performance. Mark told me once that aft sail is "a natural upwind climber", and this is true. I could sail 37-40 degrees to the wind with the mast aft, and same angle I achieved with the mast fore (same sail, different kayak). 37-40 is of course a limit, the boat almost stalls at this point, in reality it usually doesn't make sense sailing closer than 45-50 degrees to the wind.

Cons:
None that I noticed. The only problem (partly related to FC non-sailing type of rudder bracket) is that the aft mast, especially farther aft than immediately behind the cockpit, mandates higher "rudder authority" - rudder blade should be larger, and/or with a wider chord. Like I mentioned, this is a problem on FC, as their rudder bracket is not suitable for large sailing rudders like older Klepper rudder or Sunfish sailboat rudder. Mark has resolved this problem (TAD) by cutting a longer blade out of the FC hydrofoil blade material, and this looks like my next step too. So far I've been using a modified Folbot rudder (see Tony's website for details), it works, but this is a terrible design. Sadly, Folbot hasn't come up with any good sailing equipment yet, not a single part. Rudder "authority" becomes important mostly in upwind sailing. On a downwind course any rudder will do - poor rudder will just force you to depower the sail more and go slower.

For some reasons I've been longing for more sails and masts on K1. It's hardly possible to have 2 BSD masts on FC K1. I thought that fore Pacific Action sail could be used in addition to my aft BSD sail.

I've been using a PA sail - 1 sq.m (11 sq.ft) on my hardshell, then made a saddle to use it on Longhaul MK1, and also used this saddle on Kahuna. No outriggers in all 3 instances. It worked well on a hardshell and MK1. On Kahuna it works, but it is too long for a short deck of Kahuna when you stow it - the mast protrudes ugly to the side of the cockpit, getting in the way of paddle strokes. Here are the photos of saddle (shown with Kahuna): http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery2/main. ... itemId=133.

K1 with the fore PA and aft BSD (both sails furled, and amas removed for shore towing and overnight camping):

Image

Sailing with both sails raised - you can only see PA, naturally:

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In a nutshell - I'm not impressed, here is why:

1) Added PA needs attention to deal with ropes and cleats, adjusting it from time to time. These ropes and cleats also clutter the fore deck.

2) PA can only be used in moderate tail winds. When it blows harder than 15 knots, the whole system of PA ropes and spars (and my saddle) becomes unstable. It is more stable on a hardshell, and this is what it is made for. The manufacturer does not suggest using it with a folding kayak. It works on a folder with the saddle added, but this is not the same as a rigid deck. In a heavy side wind PA becomes unstable again, and in a head wind it is almost useless (manufacturer claims that it can be used upwind, and even shows some movie clip, but this is just a stunt - PA is not an upwind sail for many reasons). In low wind - 5 knots or less - there is so little help from PA on a heavy trimaran, that it is not worth efforts of raising, controlling and lowering it.

3) In the range when PA can be used - from 5 to 11 knots - it boosts my performance by 10% approximately. For example, if my trimaran speed with BSD alone is 3 knots, PA cranks it up 3.3 knots. If it wasn't for PA "distraction", with all my undivided attention on the BSD alone, I would've probably got same extra 0.1-0.3 knots out of BSD, trimming it according to the wind.

So, considering cluttered deck, extra 5 lbs of weight (with the saddle), and very little benefits of PA added to trimaran with existing 32 ft sail - this is not the way to go on a trimaran K1. So the PA saddle is now free for taking (but not the PA sail! I still love using it on my hardhsell). If somebody wants to try PA on his folder - let me know. Shipping cost would probably be less than the cost of aluminum plate and parts. The saddle comes with all the cleats, eyes etc, and is good for most of folders - K1, Longhaul MK1, probably - for AE1 as well. It does boost the performance significantly when used in a monohull mode. But as an addition to 32 sf BSD sail with outriggers it makes little sense.

I still think that 32 sf sail is not the limit for K1, and 36 sf BSD would've been better, but there are 2 usual problems with Balogh Sails - high cost and difficulties contacting Mark Balogh.

John Monroe

Re: Schooner K1 - sort of

Post by John Monroe »

Hi Alex,

I can't see why you could not carry more sail if the mountings for your mast and AKA on your K1 are strong enough. Your Balough AKA is stronger then my Folbot (I stuffed mine with blue foam for added strength and floatation) while my copy cat Balough mast may be a little stronger then your Balough mast, but the strength ability is proven with the 60 sq ft of sail area I carry most of the time.

A quick way to get a sail for testing or even permanent use is to make a poly sale using a kit from http://www.polysail.com/. His sails can be just taped and probably last a couple of years but I sewed my with my wife's old sewing machine. This sail pictured is my design but again like Balough's batwings and also 43 sq ft as my old 90's Hobie serf board sail. the belly is acquired in the sail by using a dart at the clew and some rounding at the foot and luff.

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I don't think I could sail very well with a sail behind me as I tinker with the sails using apparent wind from the tell tails, sight and feel.

John

Alm

Re: Schooner K1 - sort of

Post by Alm »

Balogh sail sizes are 32, 36 and 38. Each one can be reefed down by 30% or so. My current 32 ft sail mast is too short to accommodate BSD 36 sf or 38 sf sail - I think one of the mast sections on BSD 36/38 is longer than on BSD 32: http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/pdf/BSD_MasSail.pdf. In very heavy winds I had to reef my 32 sf sail down to its minimum size - 20 sf. If I get 38 sf sail, it can be reefed down to 25 sf, and this can still be a lot in a heavy wind, so I wouldn't want it larger. Probably single sail on a kayak shouldn't be larger than 38 sf, otherwise the mast will have to be thicker/heavier. Also, with larger sails there is the question of strength and deformations in other departments - deformation of the keelsen (mast stands on the keelsen tube), deformation of top stringers (struts are standing on the top stingers), strength of joints holding the struts to the stringers, strength of the mast-crossbar coupling. Low and narrow kayak like K1 won't handle a large single sail well, I'm afraid - it might simply become a submarine, sailing at "periscope depth" :-) ... When I'm sailing in 15-knots wind with a full load of gear, water wake from the bow is streaming along the hull-deck seam and sometimes waves go across the sprayskirt. If it were a wider and higher boat (or a hardshell), I might've considered a real schooner rig - with one outrigger and 2 BSD masts, 24 sf + BSD 36 sf. This is what people usually do when they want a lot of sail - add another sail.

Problems with tell-tails, sight and feel of the aft sail do exist, but they are less serious than people think. You don't look at tell-tails all the time, and I can occasionally look up over my shoulder and see it when I want to (I made it red, more visible). Sight... I don't know - I'm not so skilled that could tell whether the sail should be trimmed in or let out, by simply looking at camber and wrinkles - even if it were in front of me at all times. Instead, I'm watching speed, sound of water under amas, and feel (tension) of the control line in my hand. This tension would be the same in case of the fore rig - same rope and same pulleys. When I'm not happy with speed, and the wind is "difficult" - too low or too upwind, I grab the paddle and use my muscles. No amount of skilled looking and trimming will help when it blows at 45-50 degrees to your course, and not heavy enough to sail faster than 1.5 knots. When this happens, I simply let the sail out, lift the leeboard (because it works only when you sail upwind, but it increases water resistance when you paddle), and paddle to the closest campsite, adjusting my day plan accordingly.

john allsop
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Re: Schooner K1 - sort of

Post by john allsop »

ALEX i,ll send you my address if you PA mount is still available i would like to have it. John

John Monroe

Re: Schooner K1 - sort of

Post by John Monroe »

Here is just an idea. Something I have been wanting to try is making a much larger sail similar to the roller reefing 18 sq ft jib pictured. It wouldn't be as efficient sense it would have no boom and when coming about the large sail would have to change sides going between the mast and the forestay but adjusting the sail to wind conditions would be easy. I once saw a picture of a yacht with an A-frame mast in the stern that worked like this. The long leeboard I have would help adjust to the center of effort by tilting it forward or back depending on the reefed size of the sail.

John

Image

Alm

Re: Schooner K1 - sort of

Post by Alm »

John Monroe wrote:Something I have been wanting to try is making a much larger sail similar to the roller reefing 18 sq ft jib pictured. It wouldn't be as efficient sense it would have no boom and when coming about the large sail would have to change sides going between the mast and the forestay but adjusting the sail to wind conditions would be easy. I once saw a picture of a yacht with an A-frame mast in the stern that worked like this. The long leeboard I have would help adjust to the center of effort by tilting it forward or back depending on the reefed size of the sail.
I'm not sure what you mean. A kind of a big jib on the stern? Then - yes, it will be less efficient than your mainsail. And - yes, it will be easy to adjust, but, trust me, having a 2nd mast with Batwing sail (it doesn't have to be BSD, you may try your own DIY) will be more efficient and not very difficult to control. People are sailing Folbot GII with BSD schooner rig - 2 BSD masts and 1 outrigger, and they simply install on one of the masts a powerlock or whatever this fancy pull-through cleat is called - and cleat this 2nd mainsail most of the time. I can send you a photo of the 2nd mast and cleat - not mine, and can't find this page anymore, but you may have a look. I cleat my BSD aft main sail often, if wind is less than 15 knots and I need to paddle (to make it go faster), or eat or pee or use a sunscreen or put on / take off some clothes or something else.

John Monroe

Re: Schooner K1 - sort of

Post by John Monroe »

I believe this is the schooner type setup you are talking about.

Image

This is a crude drawing similar to a picture of a yacht maybe 50 foot in length with one large roller reefing sail. I believe the A-frame mast probably leaned more forward.
John

Image

john allsop
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Location: isles of scilly UK

Re: Schooner K1 - sort of

Post by john allsop »

It gets better all the time, i suppose you have seen "Canoe Rigs" by Todd E Bradshaw, he goes into aspects of sails as regards Canoes, he dosn,t really say anything about "aerofoil"sections for rudders and lee boards, but he does show most types of sails and two on canoes which he calls "twins", i think the book is interesting but then i know little about sails.

Alm

Re: Schooner K1 - sort of

Post by Alm »

Yes, this kind of BSD schooner (on the first photo) I meant. Sometimes the leeboard is on the crosstube with a larger sail (where it probably makes more sense).

On your drawing I don't understand how A-frame can be tilted forward. It should probably be vertical? otherwise the front roller-cable should be made rigid too, or the A-frame would collapse. I don't think this large boom-less sail is an efficient design - Lateen sail would probably have more benefits of different kinds. I personally found Batwing sail to be very easy to control (and to reef, with zippers and buckles). It is more high-aspect than the sail on your drawing or Lateen sail, and therefore less beneficial for monohull or single-side outrigger setups (like on some sailing canoes), but in my rig in normal course of operation (i.e. when TWO amas are inflated) stability isn't a problem.

I read Todd's book. Nice pictures, a lot of info on all kinds of sails. It is too "classic" for my boats and my purposes. (And he doesn't write about rigs for foldable boats, which in itself is a whole separate world). It is very difficult to make an efficient sailing craft out of long, narrow and low hull a sea kayak like K1, with a relatively small cockpit and small rudder bracket. This is why airfoil rudders and leeboards are needed. (And still, it will never become same efficient a sail boat as a beamy canoe with 70 sq.ft sail and one-sided outrigger or with no outrigger at all). OTH, I can paddle my K1 with all the sails on, I can land in a one-hour low-tide "window" on a tiny strip of sand and bring the whole "yacht" to my tent, across the log jams and boulders, and I can fly with it. People on canoes with nice and efficient sail rigs often have to use outboard motor to get out of trouble (when wind dies or blows straight head wind), or ask somebody to tow them. There are some sailing canoes in my area, mostly DIY rigs, so I can see how they are doing.

John Monroe

Re: Schooner K1 - sort of

Post by John Monroe »

John Alsop I just bought the book "Canoe Rigs by Todd E Bradshaw" from e-bay. Better be good. Just kidding. It looks like a great book for my library.

Alex I wish I had the picture of the yacht with the A-frame mast. I have tried to find it but can't. But I'm sure the mast was held in a forward position with struts of some sort. I think the reason for the forward leaning position from the stern is to help keep the sail lower when it is roller reefed instead of looking like a top sail with most of the sail up high in the air than if the mast was strait up from the stern. In my drawing you could envision a small triangular sail high in the air when mostly reefed instead of staying in a lower position when reefed.

Anyway, using my present mast I could make a throw-a-way sail maybe 6 times the sq ft of my jib and fastened to the roller reefing forstay and see if it sail decently and be easy to use. The big problem I see is all the sail area having to slip between the forstay and mast when coming about. It may not be possible.

The picture is a quick jib and main throw a-way-sail, cut out in less then an hour and rigged up in jiffy time. You can see my old rudder that was flat and too small that led me to build the foil rudder.

John

Image

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