Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Single outrigger / Rudder Mod

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QuattroRexT

Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Single outrigger / Rudder Mod

Post by QuattroRexT »

Hello all. My name is Rex and I've just joined your forum. After lurking in the background and searching until my vision is blurred, I've decided to take the direct approach and ask for some advice.

I've had my second folding kayak, a Klepper Quattro XT, with an S4 sail rigged with a hand tiller for about 5 years. Done a lot of sailing in this boat launching through surf (and returning through surf). Under full sail, on a brisk day in the ocean, sailing this rig demands my full attention. I’d like to fish and plan to do some traveling in Baja soon. Naturally, I'd like to keep the black side pointed down. Even in 20 plus winds I've been successful but, as mentioned, it's a handful... in fact, two hands full.

To ease my workload under sail, I’m experimenting on various modifications including the addition of an ama. While looking over several options of the short amas etc… The best thing I can come up with is a single long ama. So… I’ve purchased one single ama from a hobie adventurer with plans to mount it to the Klepper using square aluminum tubing. This ama, a little over 8 feet long and 8 inches wide, has two attach points. I’ll need to figure out a few things and would appreciate educated input from those with experience on such modifications. I know the ama is not portable and don’t plan to use it every time I head out to the ocean (or bay) but on longer trips, I need to relax some in higher winds… fish… eat etc..
I'll post a shot of the Hobbie
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But again, I purchased only ONE ama ($250) to mount on my Klepper.

It's suppose to arrive next week so it's not too late! I'm an airplane pilot as well... and it seems to me that a longer single ama would give me plenty of stability (without the drag of two amas) as well as improve the keel line for straighter sailing. Also, I may pull up to a dock and two amas make that more troublesome.
1. Can anyone recommend the best mounting points on the Klepper Quattro XT?

2. Is one long ama going to be stable enough? I’m told that because of it’s length, it will be fine. Those who seem to know also recommend 8 to 10 lbs of ballast in the ama and that it matters not which side (lee or windward) the ama rides. I even thought about rigging it to move from one side to another side while in the boat.

3. Any recommendation or "rules of thumb" on how far out the ama should ride? I'm assuming I'd want it exactly in line with the centerline of the boat... Or recommended length of the aka?

Thank you all for being active in this very cool forum as well as for any answers and help you may provide.

Rex
Klepper w G14.JPG
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Last edited by QuattroRexT on Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

Romainpek

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by Romainpek »

3. Any recommendation or "rules of thumb" on how far out the ama should ride? I'm assuming I'd want it exactly in line with the centerline of the boat... Or recommended length of the aka?
The longer the aka (the arm) the more leverage it will have, then the more stable will your kayak be.

For my own outriggers (I used a pair, not one only), I wanted them tiny so I I used long akas that push them 1.50m outside of the Klepper coaming (so I have a 3m wide kayak now).

As your ama is really large, you could probably use shorter akas than I did. One idea: as you plan to do the arms out of aluminum tubing, maybe you could do them collapsible to adapt their length to the sailing conditions of the day ?

Or more easily, you could arrange several attachment points and leave part of the aka length "unused" on the other side of the boat when the wind is not too strong, like on the sketch below
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QuattroRexT

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by QuattroRexT »

Thanks faltbootemeister for your response. It naturally makes sense that a longer aka would provide more stability on both the windward and lee side of the boat. While I understand why we'd have it longer in heavy winds, I don't quite understand the advantage of having it closer to the boat in lighter winds. Other than making the full rig narrower and maybe easier to turn.

One of my goals by using “one” large ama is to help prevent it from becoming a submarine when running on the lee side, which, when submerged, would seem to really increase drag. Also, longer (again with only one) means more stability when it's on the windward side and it won't lift out of the water as easily. I’m hoping that using a long, deep "V" ama will help the boat track straighter even when sailing upwind. Then again, I could be all wet on this (pun intended) so… I’m all ears.

Romainpek

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by Romainpek »

While I understand why we'd have it longer in heavy winds, I don't quite understand the advantage of having it closer to the boat in lighter winds. Other than making the full rig narrower and maybe easier to turn.
Honestly, I don't have the answer. Maybe too far out would cause the boat to turn towards the ama?

john allsop
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Location: isles of scilly UK

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by john allsop »

It seems that you have a great deal of experience with your Klepper sail rig, much more than most people, as regards out riggers i suspect many people design and sell them without a great deal of knowledge, they are in effect making a float without any proper research. I have commercial ones and i am quite convinced the suppliers of mine don,t know much about the correct design. The inter-net is probably the best place to find out, i have heard of using water as ballast in the outrigger and would think the designs of the people of Polynesia including Hawaii is the way to go although what you have on order will be ok with a lot of trials in relativly safe waters. It has been noted that in one part of the world the single outrigger is on the opposite side to the other part of the world.

QuattroRexT

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by QuattroRexT »

Well... I guess I'll do some trial and error testing and research in heavier winds, which are plentiful this time of year in San Diego... and find out how well this hairbrained idea of mine works. Don't want to over stress and break my boat! Though I suppose it can be fixed if I do. I'll start testing in the bay (shorter swim)

Interesting about... on which side the outrigger rides in different parts of the world. Go figure. I chose the Hobbie outrigger mainly because of it's design. Deep V, 8+ feet long and it pretty much matches the shape of the Klepper's hull. The island outriggers have higher noses and I suspect they'll run through surf better than the one I've oredered, but we'll see. Still open for suggestion from others. Thanks again. Since I'm new to this forum, I'm wondering if I've posted this in the proper place to get input from others. (?)

Romainpek

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by Romainpek »

Will you add a trampoline between your akas ?

If yes, and if you have the "hand tiller" for the rudder (+ a home made extension stick), then you don't need to add weight to the outrigger at all. You'll just lean on the side to counter the heeling. :)

QuattroRexT

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by QuattroRexT »

Romainpek wrote:Will you add a trampoline between your akas ?

If yes, and if you have the "hand tiller" for the rudder (+ a home made extension stick), then you don't need to add weight to the outrigger at all. You'll just lean on the side to counter the heeling. :)
I will have a net or light rig between the kayak and ama that can be removed. However, just for light storage or to be used as a temporary shelf. In rougher water, the tramp would catch water and slow me down or... get "removed" from the boat by water. Also, if there's a trampoline, I will not be able to paddle on that side. It seems that those in the "know" are unanimous that it be weighted at least 5lbs, possibly 10. I suspect it will also depend on the weight of the aka (arms) I use to mount the ama. Also, I would hike out hard, only if the ama is not doing it's job or... in heavier winds. I don't see how having a tramp would change this unless it was strong enough to sit up on. Which isn't the plan with this set up. The reason for the ama is to lighten my pilot work load in open ocean sailing to do other things while under sail. (Sept. 1st -- I'll edit here to inform you that with this particular ama, no additional weight was needed)
Last edited by QuattroRexT on Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

QuattroRexT

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by QuattroRexT »

Today I will do some testing with the new set up. It looks good in the garage on the frame. The akas are probably 2 feet longer than need be and currently stick out on the non-ama side. I'll bring my fine tuning tools (hacksaw) and a few other items. My hope is to keep the proa as narrow as possible and still be able to keep it in the water when it's on the upwind side. That is "if" it doesn't put too much stress on the wood frame and break! (my only concern)

I'll take a few phots before I pack it up and head for the water as well as a few shots in the water with and without the sails up. The whole set up cost me about $450 and, if it works, I'll have a rig I can paddle and sail with or with out the outrigger.
Last edited by QuattroRexT on Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Romainpek

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by Romainpek »

Waiting for your pictures. Good luck!

QuattroRexT

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by QuattroRexT »

OK, so here's what I did to the boat. Bought a Hobie outrigger from a Marige Tri. I selected that shape because it closely resembled the hull shape of the Klepper Quattro XT, $250 new. Then rigged up some aka's keeping them high for rough water. My big concern was strength of the frame when the ama was on the lee side since on the windward side, it just comes up. A photo is worth a thousand words so...
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So... off to the bay I go. The only long part "is" the ama. I left that akas long to be trimed off after checking out how far I wanted to run the ama. I landed on 4 feet out but can push it out (while on water) to 5.5 feet. The ama also slides in tight to the boat which allows me to use the wheels with the ama attached.
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Last edited by QuattroRexT on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

QuattroRexT

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by QuattroRexT »

I set it up so that I could run the ama all the way in tight to the boat in order to use the wheels and not tip. It worked! This next shot shows it on the wheels. I floated it with just the ama to check levels etc... As you can see, the akas are very long in one of the shots. After a few test runs, I brought her in and trimed several feet off of them.
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Then mounted the sails and took it out. Wind was only 5 to 8 knots so I didn't get too much of a harsh test but I did find out a lot. First, the friggen thing is SO much more stable. I've taken the boat out through surf and in the ocean a number of times and was definately NOT use to such a stable platform. I was able to haul it in and lift the ama a few times for fun. During that time, it was at 4 ft. I can push it out to 5 for more stability.

The wind picked up a few times and I was able to see how it did with the ama on the lee side, the true test of the frame. I heard a few creeks but no more than the flexing that happened when surfing back in to the beach without the ama. I have to say... for now, this test is a surprising success. I will do more mod's but thought I'd share this for now. I'm not sure how to put up photos so if I screw this up... sorry. Anyway GREAT FUN!!! I'll do more on it soon.
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Attachments
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Last edited by QuattroRexT on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

QuattroRexT

Re: Single Outrigger (ama) on a Klepper Quattro Questions

Post by QuattroRexT »

I have a lot more photos if interested, let me know.
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The next trip will be in heavier wind to see how the frame holds up... but until then... One of the best parts of a day is sitting and looking over your handywork and knowing you didn't sink the @%&$ thing! I'm very pleased so far. Thanks again for the input. - Rex
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Romainpek

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by Romainpek »

Great pictures. Your ama looks good and very pro.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by QuattroRexT »

Took it out again yesterday in 15 mph winds. Boy... it really works well. When it lifts out of the water (on windward side) the boat is VERY controllable. Before, I had to hike out as far as I could and when a sudden gust hit me, I had to be very fast with the main. Now it seems to happen in slow motion. No drama. The ama hesitates to come up when on the windward side and, naturally, is a non issue on the lee side. Non-ama sailing was fun and I'll continue to sail without the ama but with wind, it was anything but relaxing. My intent was to relax more if on a longer ocean trip. Also, I sat on the rear aka with all my weight (168lbs) and it supported me fine. That means I will be able to run a "seat" (plank) close in, between the akas where a tramp would be between the two akas and fish. Feet in the boat, butt on the plank. The sail drops and lashes to the front aka keeping it out of the way. Now that I have the idea tested and seemingly working, I’ll make new akas, shape them a better using 1.5" and 1/8th thick tube... and see how they look/work.

However, you have to plan docking since the ama side is unavailable to you...
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We made it back in with little light and wind to spare but it made for a nice finish to the day.
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All in all, I’m very very pleased.
Last edited by QuattroRexT on Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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