Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Single outrigger / Rudder Mod

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john allsop
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Location: isles of scilly UK

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by john allsop »

From what i have read the "outrigger" was kept on the windward side and out of the water so there was no drag from anything except the hull, it being used as a sort of counter balance. if you look at, i think Polynesian "outriggers" they had a very distinctive curve bow to stern. I think they are now being made in modern materials.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by QuattroRexT »

Interestingly, amas on a proa are traditionally on "one" side or the "other" side depending on which part of the world it's built. Polynesian boats also have a high bow to match the outrigger mainly for handling waves and surf. My goal was to match the hull shape of the Klepper (I mean it has to look pretty right?) The bow of the ama rides just a little bit higher than the stern with 2 on board.

I also had a GPS and was able to measure speed with wind from both sides of the boat. When windward, ama out of the water, I really didn't see much (if any) difference which tells me that the ama is reasonably efficient. Now... in a perfect world, I prefer it on the upwind side but and let it fly but... it's pretty tough to move to the other side for each tack while on the water.

I placed it on the starboard side, the same side as the tiller and the ama protects it.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by QuattroRexT »

During my first two tests, it looked like the frame would handle the latteral stress of the sail (mast) against the ama. As you can see by the earlier photo's I used 3 stainless steel clamps on each attach point. 3 clamps broke during the second test, 2 in the front and one in the rear.

I'll attach a few photos of my new design (no hose clamps) and if someone would like to see more shots, I'm happy to provide them. I'm not really sure anyone is interested so I'll keep it to a minimum. I plan to test this week.

Big change... I used different material for the aka. I used 1.5" 11 guage aluminum tubing and instead of one 90 degree bend, I bent 20 degrees and then 70 degrees where it fastens to the ama. I think it looks better and the 11 guage is 1/8th inch thick (rather than 16th)
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I used the hiking seat for the fore aka thwart and another piece of wood for the aft thwart.
I bolted "L" angle aluminum to the wood and then glued (Marine 3M 5200) the 1 5/8" tubing to it. Then used line to add strength to that. I suspect it's very strong and even looks good to my eye.

The new aka size slips inside for adjusting to any length and the ama can run on either side of the boat. There was a .007 slack that was easily taken up by using bicycle front axle clamps. Worked well. I pull the clamp out, slide the akas in and replace the clamps in predrilled 3/8th inch holes and adjust to one of three settings. I'll attach a few shots here that show the set up.
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Note the tubing extension used to keep the knob and "J" bolt as close to the tubing as possible. This allowed me to use a thinner piece of wood which gave me more room aft for seating.
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Last edited by QuattroRexT on Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by QuattroRexT »

Forward aka thwart. I may trim the wood but for now, it can be used to mount additional gear or even a cup holder for front passenger.
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For a finished look, I used a cap in the tubing. Again, note the extension on the "J" bolt to use thinner wood giving me more room aft.
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It's tough to get a good shot of the whole thing in a garage but this is the best I could do. Any question, just post or email me. If anyone is interested, I'll post how it worked next week.
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QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by QuattroRexT »

...
Attachments
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john allsop
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Location: isles of scilly UK

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by john allsop »

REX, i can assure you that all are interested in your outrigger and your testing of the system,please share your photographs, i am concerned about the coaming standing up to it, i wonder if anchoring it to the floor boards would help, i know of one person who does this with a lateen sail, but then there is more time to be spent in setting it up.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by QuattroRexT »

John, You're right... that was also my big concern. And I should have prefaced this with "I have no idea what I'm doing" Just learning as I go. But... that is one reason I selected a long skinny ama. In my first two trial runs I learned that with the ama on the windward side, if I try, the ama lifts and the frame handles it easily. Now... on the lee side is where the frame is tested. When I just grabbed the mast and pushed pretty darn hard toward the outrigger in my original "cement" test (garage). The whole boat and ama just slid to the side on the ground! With no deep keel on the boat or ama, I suspect it does the same thing on the water (only easier). May be the perfect set up and safety release. Also, it's designed so I can switch the ama to either side in a long trip on the water. Naturally, on the windward side it lifts and creates less drag when light or off the water. So that's why it's switchable.

As you can see when looking closely, I put the thwarts as close to ribs as possible. The aft aka mount is on a rib and not nearly as stressed and it's pretty close to a rib.
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The bow aka thwart takes the brunt of it all.. because it's close to the mast... If it was ON the mast, it might be better... but is as close to a rib and forward as I can get it.
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That's also why I left additional material (wood) on the fore aka mount.

The coaming seems plenty strong. I think with the leeboard, traveler and the other two (akas) thwarts, all clamped on, it squares up the combing and strengthens it significantly.
See the spacing? It creates little boxes and hopefully does the trick.
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I've not been in any 30 knot winds but so far in 15 or so, and it works well.

I may look at designing a brace that runs from the bow aka directly to the mast. That would take care of a lot of the "twisting" that takes place. Klepper brags about the flex strength of their frames and from what I've seen, it's no idle boast. And... with Kleppers, it's easy to repair should I really damage anything.

Hey... I'm not saying I got this right but truth be told, it's much better than I thought it would be. I figured I'd go out, crack a rib, break the coaming and that would be that. I'm happy I've gotten as far as I have. Our windy season is here and I should find out what I find out soon.
Last edited by QuattroRexT on Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

ziege

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by ziege »

I could be wrong, but I think the reason for the windward ama wasn't/isn't so much drag (per se), but aka (and general structure) strength.

A flying ama experiences a fairly light (wind resistance and gravity) and steady load. The the higher it flies (which typically means the faster the boat is going) the less likely those forces are to change rapidly.

An ama riding the air/water boundary is subject to stronger forces (drag through a medium ~780 times the density of air, slamming forces if the ama strikes the surface, buoyancy lifting the ama when it submerges or weight pulling the ama down when water isn't supporting it, torsional movement due to the ama trying to follow the surface of waves, etc.) which are also harder to predict. Also, a submerged ama can try to pitchpole, which probably won't flip the whole boat but will put a major (and likely unexpected) load on the akas.

If your outrigger klepper (very nice job BTW) has structural problems under sail, I bet they will show with the ama on the lee. Of course, you have access to strong materials, it looks like you built well, and there is no reason why it wouldn't be plenty strong enough. After all, trimarans face that problem all the time and relatively few part ways with their outriggers.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by QuattroRexT »

I think you are correct... you did however make me go re-read my post to be sure I didn't miss-type. Windward side, easy and more stable than without the outrigger. The ama flys if I want it to which is less drag because it's out of the water. But far more stable than the boat under sail in stock form.

As you say, the ama on the lee side is where the forces come into play. I did not post this but I've actually got shims that can be installed or removed in the "down" portion of the forward and aft akas. These either raise or lower just the bow (or stern) of the ama. My idea is to create a more stable ama (nose high if need be) in waves and rough water. In previous tests, it looked to be riding a bit high so I've dropped the bow about an inch. If I don't like it, I can remove the shim and raise the bow of the ama back to nose high configuration which, should let it handle waves and swells easier.

This was also done to modify the way the boat sits under various loads. I'm trying for level boat. Obviously, if the "down" tube of the akas are too long, the boat lists away from the ama. Just right length it will ride level... which would also help it track straight.

I selected a sharp, pointed, streamlined ama for the very reasons you mention. My hope is that it cuts through the water. I'd not thought about it "pearling" but this seems unlikely given the profile and shape of the ama. Also, I sat on the ama in the water. It sayed above water with my 168 lbs. on just one end. I suspect it would take 300+ lbs. to submerge it. We'll see- Fingers crossed.

As mentioned in my previous posts, I've had this Klepper for years and sailed with no outrigger. It's a handful and I wanted to relax some on longer trips. This set up is a new attempt to create a stable traveling/fishing platform that is LESS work to sail and easier to play on. While I've had it out and back through surf many times in the past, I've never done it with the outrigger. That will be my true design test huh? Thanks for your input.
Last edited by QuattroRexT on Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ziege

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by ziege »

Any drag-induced yaw?

Related note, and maybe you've covered it: How much toe-in are you running, or do you think it really matters in this application? I'd be tempted to try dialing in different levels to see what worked best.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Sail / Single outrigger (ama)

Post by QuattroRexT »

ziege wrote:Any drag-induced yaw?

Related note, and maybe you've covered it: How much toe-in are you running, or do you think it really matters in this application? I'd be tempted to try dialing in different levels to see what worked best.
Surprisingly, no drag-induced yaw as far as I can tell. I expected it to pull to the ama side but the boat tracks a LOT better than it does without the outrigger. It's nice aiming for a point and being able to hold the line. I did the best I could to find information on alignment but found no real information regarding a folding kayak. As a pilot containing a rudimentary understanding of aerodynamics, I decided to run it exactly parallel counting on the hull shape and streamlined outrigger to run true. Let the rudder fix what needed fixing. But running straight, it goes straight. Actually, with no keel on the Klepper and just a pair of inefficient lee boards, I'm not sure it makes much difference. I set it up dead straight. Seems to work well.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Single outrigger / Rudder Mod

Post by QuattroRexT »

When I got the boat, I flipped the rudder to make it "deep" rather than shallow.
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It worked OK... the control was not what I wanted especially under sail (without ama). The boat steered better with the ama but I wanted to do a mod I've been thinking about for some time. I bought a piece of plastic sheeting about 16th thick. Flexible and almost non-breakable. I basically made a sleeve extension for the rudder by gluing two sheets together everywhere except where the original rudder slips in place. The rivets are just added strength and to act as a guide for the rudder when placing in the sleeve rudder. Christy's Red Hot Blue Glue actually melts and bonds the plastic and it will NOT separate. It came out good, light, smooth, thin and should do the trick. We'll see. I've not tested it but plan to do so soon.
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Last edited by QuattroRexT on Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Single outrigger / Rudder Mod

Post by QuattroRexT »

After it was glued, I just shaped and rounded the edges. It fits to the white line marked on the rudder. I didn't push it "all" the way in for purposes of this post.
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Last edited by QuattroRexT on Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Single outrigger / Rudder Mod

Post by QuattroRexT »

The existing hole in the rudder (from flipping it) is now used as for a locking pin. Here, the rudder sits on top of the sleeve to show the alignment
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You can still see some grease on the rudder used to keep the glue from sticking to the halves where the rudder slips in. I'm simplifying so if interested, just ask.

QuattroRexT

Re: Klepper Quatro XT / Proa / Single outrigger / Rudder Mod

Post by QuattroRexT »

I hope you guys (if anyone is reading) aren't bored with all this and I don't want to just take up space. But here's another post:

With two in the boat, (I'm 168, crew was 175) I tested again on Saturday (Aug 29th) and the outrigger works great. No signs of over stressing the boat. As well as the newly shaped akas, I lengthened the "down" tube in the forward aka to let the ama ride deeper at the bow. Caught some good winds with it on the lee side. It even dipped under through waves... submerged due to winds and rough water (and anti-hiking to see what happened). The Klepper handled it all beautifully. My new aka thwarts stayed in place and I couldn't be happier. I still have to run out through surf (fingers over my ears for breaking parts) to see if the aka/ama mods will REALLY handle the pressure. But so far, it's very sturdy.

As for the rudder. Lots and lots of control.. lots of steering. It's weight is very light (plastic) but steering is much heavier needing more pressure at speed to steer. It's huge! I may cut it down some. One thing I noticed was the position in a straight line seemed to be correction for yaw from the ama. This could be because of the additional ama drag due to dropping the nose or because of a slight rudder warp. I'll test and fix that.

For these tests, I have a GPS mounted. The boat is faster with just me on board but with 370lbs of crew and gear, speeds were between 2.5 and 6 mph (next time I'll tell the GPS to give me knots). I've never had a GPS on board without the ama and thought I was going a lot faster but probably not since wake and water looked about the same. I'll slip off the ama, test speeds then right away, test speeds with it on. At this point, because of the streamlined ama, it seems negligible but I'd like to know for sure.

With an ama, large rudder and leeboards, I thought I'd pull up one of the leeboards. The boat tracked well. Pulled up the other, and with speed, it remained well on track. So the large rudder, at speed, also acts as a keel. But when I slowed down, to 1 or 2 mph it did not- I needed the leeboards back in the water to keep from sailing sideways! On another note, the QuattroXT has 4 air sponsons. One can give the boat a deeper "V" if only inflating the uppers. I tried it with upper and lower inflated. The boat tracks better without the lowers inflated.

Here's a few shots taken by passenger before he jumped aboard. With two in the boat, the boat rides a bit lower in the water.

Now that's a rudder!
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Main and jib opposite and the boat seems to be riding level.
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Lastly, I'm posting the track from the GPS. The start is the northern most section (top where you see a bunch of maneuvering), and runs clockwise. We had a nice stop for lunch in a marina, (the southern part of the track) and then headed back. After all the tacking, early on, I thought we'd have a nice ride back from lunch but, as you can see by the tacks (heading northwest) the wind changed! Oh well, stuff happens. I very much enjoyed the day and my newly modified Klepper. Life is good! EDIT: I should point out that in a stronger wind, I did this very same route. WIth more wind, I only tacked 4 times to get out of the channel END EDIT
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Last edited by QuattroRexT on Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

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