Greenlander II or Klondike for sailing?

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dulinor

Greenlander II or Klondike for sailing?

Post by dulinor »

Looking for a double with a sometime sailing rig - has anyone tried both (or other folders) for comparison purposes? Would probably go with the factory rigs as the aftermarket stuff seems more geared toward hard-shell boats.

treecutter
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Re: Greenlander II or Klondike for sailing?

Post by treecutter »

Hello, I have a Klondike which I sail often. I purchased the Feathercraft downwind sail which works well. I also purchased an upwind sail from "Sailboats To Go" The complete rig with outriggers cost $732.
This rig is a lateen sail and works very well.
I use the downwind unit when I'm in a hurry and can't be bothered with a long setup. I call long, 13 minutes.
The Klondike is a super boat for paddle or sail. HP

Alm

Re: Greenlander II or Klondike for sailing?

Post by Alm »

dulinor wrote:Looking for a double with a sometime sailing rig - has anyone tried both (or other folders) for comparison purposes? Would probably go with the factory rigs as the aftermarket stuff seems more geared toward hard-shell boats.
Can't say about these doubles. Tried upwind and downwind rigs on 3 other folders and one hardshell, though. First thing you have to decide is whether you need a downwind rig, or upwind sans outrigger, or upwind with outrigger. You didn't specify.

The difference between downwind and upwind needs no explanations. Important thing is that upwind sailing is impossible without a good rudder and good leeboard.

Rudders.
FC stock rudder for Klondike or K2 is barely adequate for upwind sailing - it's too small.

GII rudder is big enough, but the design is goofy, taking away a lot of its potential due to "barn door" position of the blade instead of a proper vertical blade like in FC. Also, it's not reliable mechanically and is dangling from side to side all the time. Still, it works better than FC rudder due to larger size - when it works. Small pins holding the "fork" are particularly bad - they break or get lost under sailing stress while under way.

Leeboard.
Folbot upwind sail rig includes leeboard, and this leeboard is a joke. Too small, limited adjustment options, and again dangling from side to side.

FC upwind rig instead of one leeboard has 2 smaller ones - don't know whether their total area is big enough. I don't like FC upwind rig any more than Folbot's one, and besides, it is VERY expensive. They've managed to exceed even the BSD sailrig price, which is considered costly already.

Keep in mind that upwind sailing in these boats isn't really a fun - it is too narrow, sits low in water, ride can be wet and cold. Besides, they don't perform well on upwind course - let's say, 30% worse than a small sailing dinghy like Optimist or Sunfish. Another thing to keep in mind is that most upwind rigs make paddling very awkward, especially with outriggers, and are awkward to dismantle on water to a degree that would allow you a good paddling. Normally when you install upwind rig in the morning, you have to live with "this thing" until you land somewhere, be it a good wind day, bad wind, or no wind.

Outrigger.
Second thing you have to decide with upwind rig is whether you want to have outrigger or not. I would never sail without outrigger - don't want to swim in windy and choppy seas and don't want to lose or damage valuable cargo on multiday trips. But this is up to you.

The best upwind rig, in my opinion, is BSD, but I don't know whether he sells anything these days at all. Most GII sailors are using BSD rather than Folbot upwind rig. Not only Folbot leeboard is too small, but their outrigger is flimsy at the ends (doesn't hold the amas pointed where they should), V-bracket holding the outrigger to the mast is inconvenient to use, and attachment of the outrigger to cockpit coaming (a.k.a washboards) via J-bolts is imperfect.

Boat-wise, GII is a better sailboat than Klondike, especially when schooner-rigged with 2 masts (see posts by Sailboy or Ann D at the Folbot forum). But, becoming a good sailboat with schooner rig, it becomes rather poor paddling boat (GII is slow to paddle solo without any sailrigs, to begin with). OTH, Klondike is a better paddling boat than GII - but I haven't seen it schooner-rigged and don't know how easy it would be to paddle with two masts, sails, ropes etc, compared to GII. 99% positive that nobody ever installed even a single BSD rig on Klondike, not to mention a schooner rig. FC rudder could handle some 36 sq.ft upwind sail, but is too small to handle 60 sq.ft schooner rig.

If all you want is a downwind rig, the choice is easier and you don't need a leeboard and outrigger, and any rudder will do. Important thing to consider with downwind rig is how easy will be to raise or lower the sail on water if weather changes, i.e. will you be able to do it without losing stability, which normally means - without lifting your butt off the seat. Downwind rig will allow you to utilize 30% of the wind directions available to upwind rig - in other words, you will be able to sail 3 times less than with upwind rig. OTH, downwind rigs affect you paddling options less than an upwind rig.

dulinor

Re: Greenlander II or Klondike for sailing?

Post by dulinor »

Thanks for the great replies - I had been thinking of an upwind/outrigger setup. Could obviously just get a small sailboat (my basis for comparison is racing 420's almost 20 years ago - gah), but space is limited. Would definitely be in either a "ok, let's paddle today" or a "let's sail" mode, with limited need to switch on the fly. (Possible for an ambitious multi-day camping trip every couple years that might require day-by-day decisions, otherwise day trips.)

Will definitely check out the schooner rigging idea, that could be fun. The OEM stock rigs don't replace the rudder as far as I can tell - do people beef those up or just live with the limitations?

Was disappointed to see rigs like the BSD not officially supporting folders, will definitely check out Sailboats to Go. Thanks!

Alm

Re: Greenlander II or Klondike for sailing?

Post by Alm »

Would definitely be in either a "ok, let's paddle today" or a "let's sail" mode, with limited need to switch on the fly.
That makes things easier. I'm not saying that paddling with outrigger is impossible, - but it is annoyingly slow and sail boom and control lines also may get in the way. If you are a solo paddler in a double, you have a little more room for proper paddle strokes between all those masts, ropes and outriggers.
(Possible for an ambitious multi-day camping trip every couple years that might require day-by-day decisions, otherwise day trips.)
Yeah, this is what I'm mostly keeping my BSD sail rig - ambitious multiday trips like those http://alexm221100.googlepages.com/bajafeb2009. it becomes boring with time. Our local winds (mostly in winter), currents, tides and temperatures don't make BC a perfect place for sailing.
Will definitely check out the schooner rigging idea, that could be fun.
Look for photo albums by Ann D and Sailboy on the Folbot forum (not this forum) or register and ask them directly. I have some pics on the hard drive. Note the distance between the masts, distance from the paddler to the boom, control line, outrigger etc. You need about 2 ft in front of you and 1 ft behind to avoid banging the paddle against the outrigger. Some people (Sailboy) have given up a kayak paddle completely and use a canoe paddle. I tried in canoe paddle in MK1 - it is slower than a kayak paddle.
The OEM stock rigs don't replace the rudder as far as I can tell - do people beef those up or just live with the limitations?
Sailboy made his own wooden hydrofoil rudder for GII. FC OEM upwind rigs - there are 2 different kinds if you check the website, and both don't include any rudder upgrade. FC double rudder has immersed size about 0.5 sq.ft and can't handle more than 32-36 sq.ft upwind (the rule of thumb is rudder to be 1.5% of sail area). Besides, FC rudder, albeit better oriented than on Folbot, still isn't completely plumb. Tony Niilus on his K1 (me too) have adapted Folbot rudder to FC, but like I wrote, it's not perfect. Tony's website is http://www.geocities.com/niilus/ and will be closed soon (Yahoo is canceling free web hosting). I still have that adapted Folbot rudder on my K1, but will probably have to take it to scrap metal. Cost me about $120 from Folbot :-) ...
Was disappointed to see rigs like the BSD not officially supporting folders
??... BSD has a kit for Folbots like GII and for FC (the latter being almost the same as the rig for hardshell kayaks). But Mark at BSD is a royal pain to maintain any contact with. May be for somebody who simply orders a complete schooner BOSS system for GII (about $1600, I think) he will do something in timely manner (which in his case means 7-8 months and 2-3 phone reminders), but I'm mostly ordering small parts once in a while and it is always VERY lengthy and painful process. Still, BSD is the best I have ever seen. Other rigs often have flaws in how outrigger is attached to the washboard and/or to the mast, lame shape of amas (floats), and other problems. BSD is also easy to control and reef.

treecutter
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Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:21 pm

Re: Greenlander II or Klondike for sailing?

Post by treecutter »

Well I just spent the day sailing my Feathercraft Klondike with the stock Feathercraft downwind sail. I also used a Minn Kota electric trolling motor on a bracket with outriggers supplied by sailboats to go. With the motor set at the slowest speed it helped the kayak sail at a faster speed and it felt like the motor acted as a leeboard.
all in all a very pleasant day on the water. HP

Alm

Re: Greenlander II or Klondike for sailing?

Post by Alm »

PS: after some thought - it has to be more than 2 ft from the paddler to outrigger. 3 ft or 3.5 may be.

dulinor

Re: Greenlander II or Klondike for sailing?

Post by dulinor »

Was disappointed to see rigs like the BSD not officially supporting folders
??... BSD has a kit for Folbots like GII and for FC (the latter being almost the same as the rig for hardshell kayaks). But Mark at BSD is a royal pain to maintain any contact with. May be for somebody who simply orders a complete schooner BOSS system for GII (about $1600, I think) he will do something in timely manner (which in his case means 7-8 months and 2-3 phone reminders), but I'm mostly ordering small parts once in a while and it is always VERY lengthy and painful process. Still, BSD is the best I have ever seen. Other rigs often have flaws in how outrigger is attached to the washboard and/or to the mast, lame shape of amas (floats), and other problems. BSD is also easy to control and reef.[/quote]

I saw this:

The rigs listed below will fit on Klepper™, Nautiraid™, and Folbot™ brand kayaks or kayaks of similar configurations. We are working on an installation to fit Feathercraft™ kayaks, but cannot offer a rig for these boats at this time. These rigs come complete with instructions, sail, and all of the hardware you will normally need to install the rig on your boat.

at
http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/aboUs.html

Is there a different front door to check? Or just use the hardshell one?

(I've emailed them with the question as well, no urgency here)

Alm

Re: Greenlander II or Klondike for sailing?

Post by Alm »

dulinor wrote:Is there a different front door to check? Or just use the hardshell one?

(I've emailed them with the question as well, no urgency here)
You don't seem to understand the meaning of "urgency" when dealing with Mark :-) ... Something not urgent will probably never be finished. Even after placing a specific order and after few phone and email reminders it will be done in, say, 8 months. It is not unusual not to get any response from him for a few weeks, no matter what order or inquiry. His website has not been updated for many years.

FC rig by Balogh does exist for K1 and Kahuna, since approximately year 2003. Some photos can be found in the photo gallery of Yahoo Sailing Canoes group (you need to register to see their photo files). One guy with BSD rig on K1 used to attend this FKO forum, don't know if he's still there. And, as usual, I keep a stash of photos of interest to me on the hard drive. Try and phone him, leave a message, be specific - like you want to know about BSD rig for FC Klondike, single-mast or schooner. Though, I don't see how 60 sq.ft schooner rig is possible on Klondike for the reasons I already mentioned - insufficient rudder. Single mainsail on K1 and Kahuna can be handled with a stock FC rudder for K2, (probably same size with Klondike blade), which in turn requires replacing a plastic stern molding of K1 and Kahuna with aluminum one (Klondike probably has it aluminum already). But for a schooner this double blade won't be sufficient.

Yes, the kit for a single mainsail on K1 and Kahuna is almost the same as for hardshell. K1/Kahuna rig additionally contains 2 small plastic parts called "Taco", about 2" each. I have dismantled a BSD hardshell rig (don't use it anymore), and have been trying to get these Tacos from Mark for 10 months now. For a schooner rig you'll need a second mast with sail (probably smaller than the first mast), and a second midsection of outrigger tube with all the parts holding it to the deck and to the second mast. But a schooner rig requires a bigger rudder.

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