Leeboards

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treecutter
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Leeboards

Post by treecutter »

I have the upwind lateen sail kit from Sail Boats To Go. I have been using this on my Feathercraft Klondike. The leeboards have made for awkward paddling so I removed them yesterday and found that the kayak was still able to sail to an upwind destination, perhaps even better than with the boards installed. I wonder if the boards were adding drag and stalling the boat. I am curious if anybody has any thoughts on this.
Needless to say, I am happy to have one less bulky item attached to the kayak. Thank you in advance for your opinions.
HP
Feathercraft Klondike
Feathercraft Big Kahuna

Alm

Re: Leeboards

Post by Alm »

Sometimes it looks like you are sailing upwind because the bow is pointing there. But in fact you're not. Unless there was some current your way, I don't see how this is possible. Btw, I have my lee and mast 1 ft aft of the backrest, - this provides good clearance and still allows sailing upwind (lee is only one and it is behind the hull on the photo).

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treecutter
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Re: Leeboards

Post by treecutter »

Thank you Alex. I sailed on Round Lake in Ontario. I travelled south from the Bonnechere River to the Sherwood River, about 2 miles using many wide tacks. Then I went back to the Bonnechere downwind at a very nice speed. Could in be the keel shape of the Klondike along with the hard outriggers of the rig? The wind was from the south and my tacks were very wide and took a long time.

Alm

Re: Leeboards

Post by Alm »

Outrigger sponsons, hard or inflatable (no difference here if they are fully inflated) - they are too far from the hull on a typical 5ft arm (each side, measuring from the center), to work as leeboards. Unless yours were much shorter. May be the size of Klondike immersed hull (especially when heavily loaded) provided some counter-effect to the boat's sliding to leeward side. But then, big and deeply immersed hulls create a lot of drag too, so eventually the progress is slow and tacks are too wide - often it's easier to paddle on such occasions :-) ...

Also, there is such thing as "apparent wind" - it appears that you have wind in your face, but this is because you're moving forward, while the wind is really coming at your beam or even from rear quarters.

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mussopo
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Re: Leeboards

Post by mussopo »

Hi

Alex, is it intuitive (easy) to tack with this type of rig (sail rig at stern)?
Thanks all for this thread.

Alm

Re: Leeboards

Post by Alm »

mussopo wrote:Hi

Alex, is it intuitive (easy) to tack with this type of rig (sail rig at stern)?
Thanks all for this thread.
When going upwind, you can't judge the optimal trim of sail by looking at tell-tales. Whether the sail is fore or aft of you, your only indicator on upwind course is how tight the control line feels in your hand. And the optimal "tight" depends on how heavy the wind is.

The only thing that I could judge by looking is when sail becomes flapping if the course too close to the wind, but this I can always hear, and it also feels immediately - the boat stalls.

So, eventually I am doing the same thing as if it were fore-mounted sails - tighten the line up to the point that gives me the best speed at the particular course.

treecutter
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Re: Leeboards

Post by treecutter »

well, I sailed my Klondike again without the leeboards and I am sure I was able to go upwind. (slowly) The lateen sail is like a weather vane so I used that as a reference. Plus the flags at cottages on shore were also blowing in that direction. When I turned back it was a fast downwind ride.
I did have to use my paddle to change the tack every time going upwind but otherwise it seemed to work.
Alex: My outriggers from sailboats to go are 7 feet wide and the Klondike's beam is 31 inches.
Your comments please. I'm new to kayak sailing so I'm trying to understand this. Thank you once again. HP

henry

Re: Leeboards

Post by henry »

Without a leeboard my Folbot Yukon will sail approximately on a beam-reach while pointing upwind - that's 45° of leeway. It is barely possible for me to make any upwind progress in this configuration.

The bigger hull of a Klondike and 7ft amas will add some additional lateral resistance, so it doesn't surprise me that you can travel better upwind. However 'better' is a relative term, and if your leeboard is a suitable size for the sail, I expect you will see a considerable improvement upwind when using it.

Alm

Re: Leeboards

Post by Alm »

Without a leeboard my Folbot Yukon will sail approximately on a beam-reach while pointing upwind - that's 45° of leeway. It is barely possible for me to make any upwind progress in this configuration.
This has been my experience too, in 3 different boats. Bow pointing upwind, and the boat going 45 degs or more off that direction, considering the resulting vector of my progress. In other words, sliding to the lee side was same or more than upwind progress.
...and 7ft amas will add some additional lateral resistance
He probably meant 7 ft length of the outrigger arm on each side. Leeboard is most efficient when placed close to the hull, and amas are not.
I did have to use my paddle to change the tack every time going upwind
This is normal. Kayaks don't change tack well on their own - they are too long relatively to their width, too good tracking.
I'm new to kayak sailing so I'm trying to understand this.
Well, may be you've just made some ground-breaking discovery in sailing, who knows...

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mussopo
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Re: Leeboards

Post by mussopo »

Hi treecutter

What's your sail area? (just to compare with what i've now)
Regards

ps: awesome set Alex, and thanks for reply...guess you can collapse that mast whilst on the water too.

Happy sailing & paddling to all

Alm

Re: Leeboards

Post by Alm »

mussopo wrote:Hi treecutter

What's your sail area? (just to compare with what i've now)
Regards

ps: awesome set Alex, and thanks for reply...guess you can collapse that mast whilst on the water too.

Happy sailing & paddling to all
He is on the lake, I understand. My feeling is that it was a beam reach course with some sliding to the lee side. When I didn't have enough lateral resistance (with a small leeaboard from Folbot and a small boat FC Kahuna), I played like that for a while - going wide tacks, changing tack, again and again. After an hour or two I was essentially at the same spot, this was easy to notice because it was a narrow channel. On a wider lake it may seem that you're making some upwind progress, while in reality you're going from one side to another, with hardly any upwind progress.

Yes, I can remove top sections of the mast on the water, and strap the furled sail to the after-deck like on the photo. For paddling I don't have to do this - amas do add some resistance, but in Baja winds come and go very suddenly, and it is easier just to lower the sail and leave mast and amas in place. It's a Balogh 32 sf ft sail and mast, with 4ft and 3 ft sections. When I partially dismantle the rig, I leave 3-ft long midsection of the crossbar and lower section of the mast in place, because it doesn't interfere with moving the boat around ashore. For paddling I don't have to remove anything, and often I do a "motor-sailing" - tying the control line with a sleep-knot to the deck bungee and paddling, to augment slow sailing by my muscle effort. (Or - to make paddling easier). Very versatile arrangement indeed.
I did not invent anything there, and merely followed the design by Tony Niilus http://www.geocities.com/niilus/ first on FC Kahuna and then - on FC K1. To see the details, go to the "Pages" - link at the bottom of the page. My Kahuna version needed some modifications and wasn't quite like Tony's. Also, I used a 32 sq.ft sail VS Tony's 36 sq.ft. Still, even on bigger K1 it was more than enough sail power in heavy winds, and often I had to reef. Upwind angle (real course, no sliding) was about 37 degrees to the wind in light winds. With heavier winds and more choppy waters the angle opens wider - this is to be expected with any sail.

Oddly, Tony's Geocities website still works - Yahoo said it would close free Geocities accounts last June. Perhaps, Tony's account is not a free one (they have $15 or so accounts, and I don't like their service).

treecutter
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Re: Leeboards

Post by treecutter »

Thank you everyone for all the response. My sail area is 38 sq ft. the pontoons are 42" long and the total beam (port to starboard) is 7 feet. It is the standard sail kit from Sails to Go.
I am sure about making progress upwind because I sailed from the mouth of one river along the lake to the other river. If you look at sailboats to go you will see the exact rig.
The leeboards that come with the rig are noisy (lots of drag) and I need a canoe paddle. Without the boards I can use a kayak paddle and I don't find the boards made any difference. Perhaps it is the boards, but I seemed to stall alot with them. Without boards I just go.
I admit I'm a novice sailor so I appreciate all your feedback.
Thanks again, HP

Alm

Re: Leeboards

Post by Alm »

Yeah, poor leeboard can be worse than no leeboard at all. Beam isn't measured from ama to ama. Normally amas (pontoons) contribute very little to lateral resistance, being far from the hull. 7 ft ama to ama means roughly 2 ft from ama to hull, and this is much closer than on other common rigs like BSD or Folbot. That close to the hull amas might contribute to LR enough to make wide-angle tacks. A good leeboard is a better solution than close amas, leave alone worse stability of close amas. 38 sq ft can be a lot of sail in heavy wind gusts.

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Re: Leeboards

Post by john allsop »

In the first question "Treecutter" informed us that he was using a Lateen sail, isn,t this sail considered to be quite good at "going up wind" as regards the written word, the book by Todd E Bradshaw "Canoe Rig, The Essence and the Art" may be of interest, full of all sorts of info, is it all correct, i don,t know, but it,s well worth having on your shelf, also the British military Kayaks (canoes) or "Cockles" used a lateen sail which they sailed loose footed if thats the correct term when no bottom spar is used on a lateen sail. It is shown in the book by QUENTIN REES "The Cockleshell Canoes, British Military Canoes of World War Two." The second edition should still be available. Again a very interesting book.

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mussopo
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Re: Leeboards

Post by mussopo »

Again thanks everyone for valuable tips.

HP:
My sail is about 20.45 sqf., as i've stated before somewhere in this topic- "sail gear", not a lateen though (mine is supposed to have a boom with goose-neck, although i'm still considering the chance of a boomless battened one, let's see...this part i didn't accomplish yet)...and hope this doesn't play tricks on my Klep2 (still have to try something out this summer...with or without front mast[*]) :roll:

[*]- I've actually made 2 small masts, one in the front (to be hinged) and another one aft position (between rear seat lumbar support and "boomerang rib"). Both serving as bases, (1st one for hinged config. thinner mast), and 2nd (aft) for an half paddle (working as mast...in this config. sail is working as a "spinnaker jib(?)" going all the way above paddlers' heads (in this case, no boom of course)). Both can work separately with same triangular sail, as an option. Let's see if i can send after some depictions of this gear, in case of success only (no promises yet) :mrgreen:
... and with a bit higher budget one can double sail area (rigging 2 sails at the same time with 2 masts...but this will be part II of another implementation (outriggers considered)).
...leeboards not forgotten, of course.


Alex:
...I do a "motor-sailing" - tying the control line with a sleep-knot to the deck bungee and paddling, to augment slow sailing by my muscle effort.
Thus, may i understand you're controlling main sheet without a cleat (bungee working as shock absorber)?

Cheers

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