Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

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MoeJoe

Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by MoeJoe »

Hi,

Anyone who has experience with using lee boards for a Feathercraft Kahuna? (Or can point me to a suitable older thread on this forum, I have searched but haven't found any) Are there any ready-made products that could be bought or is home-building the only option?

Should be something that is lightweight, "folding", and not restricting paddling too much. I don't want to cut or sew in the skin, so fastening with straps of some kind would likely be needed. I'd be using the standard rudder and this sail: http://www.funktionelldesign.se/galleri ... malmon.asp

I would not expect any superb performance but being able to go at least somewhat upwind would be nice.

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KayDubbya
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Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by KayDubbya »

follow this link...

http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/communi ... highlight=

Kayakwriter on the Westcoastpaddler.com forum has a crazy sailing rig for his hard shell. I don't see why his lee board solution wouldn't also work on your Kahuna.
Feathercraft Wisper

Alm

Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by Alm »

MoeJoe wrote: Anyone who has experience with using lee boards for a Feathercraft Kahuna? ...
Are there any ready-made products that could be bought or is home-building the only option?

Should be something that is lightweight, "folding", and not restricting paddling too much. I don't want to cut or sew in the skin, so fastening with straps of some kind would likely be needed. I'd be using the standard rudder and this sail ...

I would not expect any superb performance but being able to go at least somewhat upwind would be nice.
You DON"T need a leeboard for downwind sailing. I hope this is clear. There are some downwind designs that allow you sailing in approximately 140 degrees angle of tailwind, i.e. up to 70 deg from left or right side. For a headwind or 90-degree crosswind you need a leeboard AND sail much larger than downwind sail, AND a good rudder AND (not absolutely necessary) a stabilizing floats - amas. This is a lot of gear to buy (or make).
AFAIK, there is no commercial upwind sail rig for Kahuna (with or without amas), except for a Balogh rig.

You can tie a leeboard with a lead cast to the mast or something else, - like in the link provided by Kay. If you can get a book "Sailing Your Canoe" by John Bull - it has good pictures how to make such a leeboard with casts, so that the casts won't fall out. It is not available at Amazon.com, I've got mine at the library. May be people at Yahoo group - groups.yahoo.com/group/sailing_canoes - have some photos. Also, you may order a leeboard from Balogh, but it has to be mounted on some thwart - most likely, you'll have to use a middle section of this outrigger with leeboard clamp. But ordering anything from Balogh is extremely difficult.

Leeboard will not be your biggest challenge. If I understand correct, you want to sail it upwind without amas (outrigger). This will limit you to a small sail, 20 sq. ft (2 sq.m) or less, and even with a small sail stability may be a problem, so you will be limited to light winds only. The sail in your link is big enough for upwind sailing without amas, and it will feel VERY unstable in heavy winds. Note that he has a Greenland paddle. "Euro" paddle is less desirable to use as a stabilizing outrigger. He is using a paddle both for steering and for keeping a balance (and, may be, as a kind of a leeboard) - this can be tiresome and dangerous. Again, - upwind sailing is not possible without a leeboard, or you will be drifting to the side too much.

If you install an outrigger with amas, it will be easy to attach any leeboard, but then you'll have a problem with paddling, because outrigger will get in the way of paddling strokes. Upwind mast and sail will also get in the way, even without amas, because for upwind sailing you need a large sail. Paddling is important, because you can't always rely on wind, and you don't carry an outboard motor.

The only solution that allows having an upwind mast, leeboard, and amas, and a good paddling at the same time, is installing everything AFT of the cockpit, like Tony Niilus did on FC K1 http://www.geocities.com/niilus/ . This requires cutting the hole for mast in the aft hatch cover (not in the deck), and a lot of other DIY work. I copied his design on Kahuna, and had to change some details, because Kahuna is different from K1. It allowed me some upwind sailing, very good cross-wind sailing, and paddling at any time if I wished so. Later I bought a K1 and transferred the sail rig there, also with some changes, and covered quite a substantial distance, sometimes paddling up to 19 nm (36 km) a day, when there was no wind and no good campsite: http://sites.google.com/site/alexm221100/bajafeb2009 . Considering that paddling with amas is slower than without them, I can say that K1 (and Kahuna) can be paddled well with this rig. I can also say that for flying, and for lighter weight ashore, wooden platforms with tie-down ropes is a pain and I will replace it with Balogh parts that require cutting 5 mm holes in the deck (if I will manage to get these parts from Balogh).

Another problem is a rudder. Even with sail fore of the cockpit the rudder has to be MUCH larger than standard rudder blade of K1 or Kahuna. With sail aft of the cockpit the blade has to be larger yet. Tony used the blade from K2, and said that it was almost enough. I can confirm this. He also used a modified Folbot blade, and said it was better. I confirm this too, and can also confirm that Folbot blade (and their other rudder parts attached to the stern) is a poorly designed thing. I could have finished my trip 2 days earlier (or could have 2 more layover days) if I didn't have problems with Folbot rudder. For the next sailing trip I will either use K2 blade (I have it), or make my own blade out of the FC hydrofoil material (you can see abnormally long gray rudder on Kahuna rig on Tony's website - this is a home-made blade).

And yet another problem - plastic stern molding of Kahuna and post-1999 K1. Good rudder needs a good molding. I had to replace it with aluminum molding from K2. Tony had aluminum molding, as his K1 was built before 1999.

MoeJoe

Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by MoeJoe »

Amazing that a "tossed leeboard" can work at all but I guess the downwind pressure keeps it in place more or less. The guy with the Kahuna on the pictures I linked to do have a rudder on his kayak and yes I suppose he is using the paddle for extra support when needed. He also uses elastic straps for the sail to soften harder gusts of wind. According to him, the performance he gets is about the same kph in boat speed as m/s in wind speed, so 5 m/s wind moves him forward with 5 kph, sounds fairly reasonable. I think he was sailing mostly downwind that day. We'll see, I'll start with getting the sail and rig and then I'll go from there and experiment. I'm not against using outriggers, just want a light and compact setup that don't restrict transport mobility and paddling too much. Good points about the rudder size and rudder molding.

MoeJoe

Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by MoeJoe »

Had another idea.. How abut the strap-on skeg that is available for Feathercraft Kahuna?

If placed on a suitable location under the hull (Perhaps under the sail, in front of the cockpit) to get the right balance between sail and rudder, it should surely assist in improving ability to maintain a direction that is not downwind? Not a big investment so worth a try maybe..

Image

Alm

Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by Alm »

Amazing that a "tossed leeboard" can work at all but I guess the downwind pressure keeps it in place more or less.
Lead casts prevent it from floating. But they can't prevent it from deviating a little towards the stern, due to water pressure from the bow, unless it's VERY heavy. They also can't prevent it from being partially pulled under the boat (and neither can tie-downs). So it will be dangling aft-forward, left-right, thus reducing the efficiency. But it will work. This is better than no leeboard at all. Also, note that you have to move this leeboard from one side to another every time when you "tack" (change the upwind course), giving you an additional chance to capsize.

The guy with the Kahuna on the pictures I linked to do have a rudder on his kayak and yes I suppose he is using the paddle for extra support when needed.
With sail of this size he HAS to use his paddle as a stabilizing outrigger in winds 7-8 knots (4 m/s) and heavier. Which leaves him no time to rest, and no possibility to paddle and sail at the same time, unless he cleats his sail (which he probably HAS to do, because his hands are busy with holding a paddle). This is very similar to what I do with Pacific Action downwind sail - but it is a downwind sail, smaller and easier to deal with. Also, PA can be brought down to the deck any time together with the mast in a split second, and the sail in your link - I don't know.
He also uses elastic straps for the sail to soften harder gusts of wind.
Yes, like in my PA. I also do this with my outrigger Balogh rig, but only for short periods of time, because elastic cord is not as efficient as skilled manual handling, and can be dangerous when gust is too heavy (especially without outrigger). The sail in your link looks not bigger than my 32 sq.ft upwind sail, but it is HUGE for sailing without an outrigger.
According to him, the performance he gets is about the same kph in boat speed as m/s in wind speed,
1m/s =3.6 kph, so his speed was 3.6 times slower than wind speed, or 27% of wind speed. On a downwind course the boat speed can probably reach 50-60% of the wind speed. When sailing upwind, depending on the angle, your speed in the direction of the tack will be sometimes 20% of the wind speed even with very efficient leeboard and rudder. With inefficient leeboard and rudder you upwind sailing will be slower yet. Also, when your destination requires you taking alternating tacks, the resulting progress is MUCH slower than your upwind speed in the direction of tack. On such occasions it is often easier to lower the sail and start paddling, but I am not sure that the sail in your link can be easily lowered and stored on deck without becoming an obstacle to your paddle strokes.
I think he was sailing mostly downwind that day.
I think so too. I also think that the wind was not stronger than 10-12 knots on that day (5-6 m/s), and I wonder what he would do with his sail in heavier winds.
I'm not against using outriggers, just want a light and compact setup that don't restrict transport mobility and paddling too much.
Balogh sail with outrigger (he calls this setup a BOSS system) weighs about 30 lbs (14 kg) including sail, outrigger and leeboard, can be stored in a narrow 1.5m long bag, and doesn't restrict travel in a car, long-distance bus or airplane. But assembling any substantial upwind rig takes some time, so if you have to assemble Kahuna on that day as well, this can be too much. In multiday sailing expeditions I don't assemble Kahuna (or K1) and sail rig every day, naturally.
Good points about the rudder size and rudder molding
For downwind sailing (and any sail without a good leeboard will be a downwind sail), you don't need a rudder bigger than standard Kahuna blade. May be you can even live with standard plastic molding, if sail is small and downwind and not used in heavy weather. Installing aluminum molding would make it more reliable, of course. You can do it yourself (I forgot the name of the sealant that FC is using, it is sold in marine stores).
[strap-on skeg] should surely assist in improving ability to maintain a direction that is not downwind
I doubt. For upwind sailing the leeboard has to be at least 5-6 times bigger than this skeg, which means - it has to be long vertically, and then the straps used with FC skeg won't keep a long board from dangling chaotically.

MoeJoe

Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by MoeJoe »

"Quote:
According to him, the performance he gets is about the same kph in boat speed as m/s in wind speed,

1m/s =3.6 kph, so his speed was 3.6 times slower than wind speed, or 27% of wind speed."

Exactly. Sorry if I didn't make it through the language barrier but that is what he meant.

(If wind speed is 5 meters per second, he claims to get a boat speed of about 5 kilometres per hour.)

That is not very fast of course. With wind and waves pushing from behind I can paddle much faster than that, but that is sort of a different topic.

MoeJoe

Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by MoeJoe »

After more internet surfing I found this super-cool looking rig that perhaps is already well known to you all but I hadn't seen it; http://www.kayaksailor.com/
- Sweet looking setup that takes care of lee boards at the same time as the sailing rig..

Seems like it works fine for upwind and side wind sailing without sponsoons also, at least according to this review: http://www.topkayaker.net/Articles/Surf ... ailor.html

Decisions, decisions.. Might get a Windpaddle soon and the Kayaksailor setup later, perhaps better than getting halfway with the Fardiland sail without included lee boards..

Romainpek

Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by Romainpek »

It looks neat... maybe the small size explains why sponsoon are not needed (a Klepper S2 rig is 3 times bigger).

I don't know too much what to think about the sentence : "Kayaksailing without a rudder helps to improve your bracing and steering skills."

Alm

Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by Alm »

MoeJoe wrote:After more internet surfing I found this super-cool looking rig that perhaps is already well known to you all but I hadn't seen it; http://www.kayaksailor.com/
- Sweet looking setup that takes care of lee boards at the same time as the sailing rig..
May be. Reminds me Australian designs with hinged mast - they use it on hardshell kayaks. I was thinking about hinged mast for a while, and then decided that installing it on a folder will be too complicated - too many things to attach, with no rigid surface to attach them to. Tha company in your link provides very little info. How long is the boom? Can you lower and rise the mast from the cockpit? How will you attach the mast base, the stays, and all the cleats to Kahuna deck? Has anybody ever done it on any folder?
Seems like it works fine for upwind and side wind sailing without sponsoons ... .
You definitely want to sail without sponsons :-) ... This is not a problem. Any downwind sail up to 11 sq.ft (1 sq.m) will let you do this safely. But you might have problems when you get a bigger sail and try sailing upwind without outriggers. You HAVE to get a sail bigger than 1 sq.m in order to sail upwind - it should be at least 1.4-1.6 sq.m like those in your link. 1.6 sq.m is still not big enough for a good sailing upwind in low winds, but without sponsons you can't have it bigger if you want to enjoy moderate winds as well. Mostly, I'm concerned about the ease (and the very possibility) of installing those rigs on a tiny Kahuna deck.

MoeJoe

Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by MoeJoe »

Found the link to the rig via the www.pakboats.com site, so tested on folders already. Guess I meant outriggers/amas if that is not the same as sponsons.. Check out the videos on the sailrig site, shows nicely how it works.

Alm

Re: Lee Boards for Feathercraft Kahuna?

Post by Alm »

MoeJoe wrote:Found the link to the rig via the http://www.pakboats.com site, so tested on folders already.
I meant - "folders" with soft deck. Because the absence of rigid platform is usually the main challenge, as I've found. I can see one low-resolution photo on Packboats site - it shows this rig on Pack-Canoe, boat much wider and longer than Kahuna, and (as I can see) with some exposed rigid elements (benches, gunwales etc) that might help to attach the sail rig parts. Well, if you want to try - go ahead... To me installing it on Kahuna doesn't look a perfectly clear task - not enough info, too many unresolved questions.

Didn't want to criticize, but Romainpek is right - they are saying strange things, that sailing without a rudder helps improving bracing and steering skills, or that due to presence of leeboards one doesn't need a rudder for sailing. Don't want to comment this.
Guess I meant outriggers/amas if that is not the same as sponsons..
I understood what you meant, and I'm not concerned with terminology here. Usually outrigger means the crossbar (aka) with some floats (amas). Sometimes people call floats "sponsons", though I prefer not calling them sponsons, because this term is already reserved to sponsons built into in the folder hull.

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