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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:23 pm 
Thanks for the advice.

I'm interested in the kayaksailor rig because of its ease of stowing/deploying. You're right about the Wayland rig being cheaper and possibly a better sailing solution but it is not a rig that can be raised/lowered on the move so you either have a bad sailing dinghy or an oddly balanced(with mast) canoe.

I think I'll wait until the development has happened, which I'm sure it will. I look forward to seeing the finished product!

Regards

Richard


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:47 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:06 pm
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Location: Spruce Head, Maine
Quote:
mounting with the stay and foot will not, necessarily, impede your stroke. The plan is to attach the aft section of the long, squarest, horizontal tube of the rig to a vertical tube captured by the stay and foot.


Is this true for a single or a double Klepper/Long Haul, or both?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:07 pm 
machone wrote:
[Jib + standing lug] is not a rig that can be raised/lowered on the move so you either have a bad sailing dinghy or an oddly balanced(with mast) canoe.

2 corrections:
1) Standing lug can be raised, lowered and reefed on water. Jib can be raised and lowered too, with some additions. I am not sure what you meant by "on the move" - normally you have to stop and turn into wind for raising any big sail.
2) To avoid having an oddly balanced boat (with mast), you need to take the mast out of the mast collar, which is doable on a double kayak. On a low-aspect standing lug the mast is usually low and hardly can destabilize a barge like AEII or GII or Wayland double. But it can be taken out if needed.

Balanced lug (or it looks like a balanced lug) was used on GII recently in Alaska trip. They raised and lowered it on water, including complete removal of the mast. Sail area was 22 sq.ft, which is, as I recall, a bit more than Kayaksailor rig. http://omick.net/adventure/kayak%20trip%202009/The%20Kayak/The%20Kayak.htm

It should be stressed here that Kayaksailor maximum size 17 sq.ft (1.6 sq.m) is not a heck of a sail for a heavily loaded big double kayak. For sailing without outriggers I would be the first to get a smaller sail than needed, and would get a smaller yet 15 sq.ft sail (1.4 sq.m) for a narrow kayak like FC K1. But 17 sq.ft on a heavy double might be just too small.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:53 am 
Hi Alex

When I wrote 'cannot be' I suppose that is not strictly true. However, I phoned Wayland and asked them if raising or lowering the rig was doable on the water(not underway) and they said it was definately not recommended and would probably take a long time and be dangerous. Fairly definative, coming from the manufacturer.

Sailing rigs on kayaks without outriggers is a massive compromise anyway. The reason I'm keen on the kayaksailor rig is the ease of deploy/stow - that's it. If it's not working or too scary I can stow it in a couple of seconds. If a solution is created that will fit my boat I think it's the best solution for my needs. It would, however, be great to test both rigs before I commit.

Regards

Richard


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:11 am 
faltbootemeister
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
..Had a nice paddle sailing day yesterday on Ingaröfjärden, mostly sailing or paddle-sailing on the way out, south-east, except for when in sheltered sounds between the interesting rocky islands.. Clocked speeds of up to 10.1 km/h when the wind peaked in a couple of gusts.. After lunch in the afternoon the wind died out so I paddled back the 15 kilometers to the starting point at Älgö. Some pics;

Image

Image

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:17 pm 
machone wrote:
I phoned Wayland and asked them if raising or lowering the rig was doable on the water(not underway) and they said it was definately not recommended and would probably take a long time and be dangerous. Fairly definative, coming from the manufacturer.

Sailing rigs on kayaks without outriggers is a massive compromise anyway. The reason I'm keen on the kayaksailor rig is the ease of deploy/stow - that's it. If it's not working or too scary I can stow it in a couple of seconds. If a solution is created that will fit my boat I think it's the best solution for my needs.

Wayland rig looks like on the bigger side - something similar to Klepper S4 size, from 35 to 45 sq.ft. total area. No good photos or dimensions on their site. Jib normally can't be removed on water, you have to add one more line and a pulley. Standing lug can be removed, but with a large sail it can be messy thing to do in heavy weather.

I hear you about being able to deploy and stow the sail quickly and without having to move around the cockpit. This is what I like in Pacific Action (works on Klepper/Wayland too, btw - Klepper has optional mast platform for PA). But PA is a downwind rig, and the above mentioned standing lug in Alaskan trip was used as downwind too. And this - midsize low-aspect sail for downwind - was apparently the best solution for needs of people in Alaskan trip, it worked and it was safe. I think in a similar situation it could be the best solution for my needs too, in a big boat on a long trip - some 15-25 sq.ft downwind sail with no outrigger. In a narrow FC I would prefer outrigger. For yours or somebody else needs the best solution can be quite different. Kayaksailor on FC boat, for example, looks like a good daysailing solution, very sporty, but I am not into daysailing on FC, for many reasons.

One thing that needed attention with PA (and I see similar signs on stowed Kayaksailor), was that furled sail on the deck was difficult to keep completely furled, and it created resistance to wind and splashing waves. This type of stowed rig is mostly beyond your reach on deck. Kayaksailor presents even higher "superstructure" when stowed, with all these parts. This is almost inevitable in any rig that can be lowered on deck - you will have to keep it on deck. One exception that comes to mind is Spirit - it can't be lowered, but instead, it can be quickly removed from the mast base, and stowed in the cockpit or under deck.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:51 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 180
Location: Arizona, USA
Alm wrote:
machone wrote:
I phoned Wayland and asked them if raising or lowering the rig was doable on the water(not underway) and they said it was definately not recommended and would probably take a long time and be dangerous. Fairly definative, coming from the manufacturer.

Sailing rigs on kayaks without outriggers is a massive compromise anyway. The reason I'm keen on the kayaksailor rig is the ease of deploy/stow - that's it. If it's not working or too scary I can stow it in a couple of seconds. If a solution is created that will fit my boat I think it's the best solution for my needs.

Wayland rig looks like on the bigger side - something similar to Klepper S4 size, from 35 to 45 sq.ft. total area. No good photos or dimensions on their site. Jib normally can't be removed on water, you have to add one more line and a pulley. Standing lug can be removed, but with a large sail it can be messy thing to do in heavy weather.

I hear you about being able to deploy and stow the sail quickly and without having to move around the cockpit. This is what I like in Pacific Action (works on Klepper/Wayland too, btw - Klepper has optional mast platform for PA). But PA is a downwind rig, and the above mentioned standing lug in Alaskan trip was used as downwind too. And this - midsize low-aspect sail for downwind - was apparently the best solution for needs of people in Alaskan trip, it worked and it was safe. I think in a similar situation it could be the best solution for my needs too, in a big boat on a long trip - some 15-25 sq.ft downwind sail with no outrigger. In a narrow FC I would prefer outrigger. For yours or somebody else needs the best solution can be quite different. Kayaksailor on FC boat, for example, looks like a good daysailing solution, very sporty, but I am not into daysailing on FC, for many reasons.

One thing that needed attention with PA (and I see similar signs on stowed Kayaksailor), was that furled sail on the deck was difficult to keep completely furled, and it created resistance to wind and splashing waves. This type of stowed rig is mostly beyond your reach on deck. Kayaksailor presents even higher "superstructure" when stowed, with all these parts. This is almost inevitable in any rig that can be lowered on deck - you will have to keep it on deck. One exception that comes to mind is Spirit - it can't be lowered, but instead, it can be quickly removed from the mast base, and stowed in the cockpit or under deck.


Wayland offer two sail sets -

One, their Latin rig ( to which you refer. This is the Lug rig in Lateen form ). The other is smaller in sail area and what Wayland call their Symmetrical Sail. There is a single photo of the rig; and with my admittedly troublesome eyesight it appears to be a sort of spinnacker or just a large loose-foot jib and mast.

See their sail rigs here in their online catalog : http://sklep.wayland.com.pl/index.php?k4,wyposazenie-do-skladakow,1

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:47 pm 
kenton wrote:
Wayland offer two sail sets -

One, their Latin rig ( to which you refer. This is the Lug rig in Lateen form ). The other is smaller in sail area and what Wayland call their Symmetrical Sail. There is a single photo of the rig; and with my admittedly troublesome eyesight it appears to be a sort of spinnacker or just a large loose-foot jib and mast.

See their sail rigs here in their online catalog : http://sklep.wayland.com.pl/index.php?k4,wyposazenie-do-skladakow,1

My eyesight is probably troublesome too. Or a poor photo. Anyway, their "symmetrical rig" looks like 2 jibs joined at the central stay. This is a downwind rig. For downwind semi-permanent rig (i.e. that can't be lowered instantly onto the deck together with mast) I would rather go with some proven design - one jib or one balanced lug like on GII in Alaskan trip.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:48 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 430
It looks very interesting this kayaksailor rig. The slick raising and lowering mechanism looks very attractive. It is nice to see that it can be used on a folder. I was wondering how/whether you think it would work well on an old Klepper T9. Would the peaked deck be a problem? It looks as thought the feathercraft's deck is rather flatter, but perhaps that is irrelevant to how it is attached. I wonder if MoeJoe could comment on how he has attached it to his folder, and how secure it is, as the Kayaksailor site instructions assume a hardshell and various screws and rivets, after an initial trial using straps. Can one just rely on the straps? Have you had to fit extra attachment points, D-rings, or ... something?

Thanks for any advice.
Ian


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:18 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 810
Location: atlanta, georgia
There is now a custom attachment for the sail, you can see it on klepperamerica's facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Klepper-K ... 9779014630 I have the rig attachment for the Klepper double, it works just fine. It attaches to the combing and the mast bracket, goes on or off in a couple of minutes.

I am trying to fabricate a rig for my Kahuna, as it stands now it really is a chore strapping the rig to the deck using webbing and pool noodles for cushioning. If anyone has a solution I would love to see it.

Best,
g

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:50 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:41 am
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Have a look at the Kayaksailor blog http://blog.kayaksailor.com/ , they made a post about how to add D-ring attachment points. Might be an option for those who need more of those. They use Pakboats xp15's themselves for kayaksailing.

I use a bunch of straps for attachment. A bit fiddly to set up, but works ok. Some sort of deck frame for the
rig might be helpful but I don't think it is a must.

Hopefully they will supply some folding kayak sail rig version/accessory soon.

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Kayak: Nautiraid Narak '11
Kayak sail rig: Kuvia Kayaksailor 1.6 '10
Sailboat: StorTriss MKII, 17.5 Feet, '75
Blog: jarladventures.blogspot.com


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:42 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

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Thanks for that, g and MoeJoe. I wonder if I can persuade Father Christmas to bring me one ...
Ian


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:42 am 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:41 am
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Tried kayaksailing with the Narak last weekend, worked nicely, bigger rudder of the Narak helps, but being more slender compared to the Kahuna, one has to be more active on leaning and paddle support from time to time. A bit fed up with the "strap attachment setup", will make some sort of platform/side support solution for quicker and more stable attachment to the kayak when I have some spare time during the dark winter months..

Image

_________________
Kayak: Nautiraid Narak '11
Kayak sail rig: Kuvia Kayaksailor 1.6 '10
Sailboat: StorTriss MKII, 17.5 Feet, '75
Blog: jarladventures.blogspot.com


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:33 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
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Location: atlanta, georgia
Thanks, great pic. That looks like quite a lot of sail on your kayak, are you able to handle in high winds? I have the 1.6 m2 on my Klepper, but I have a 34" beam and (almost) no chance of going over. Thanks for your contributions.

g

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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:44 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1060
Location: isles of scilly UK
If you sail the Aerius 2 from the rear seat like i do i think the mount will have to be moved further back than the mount made by Klepper America in order to reach it, if this is the case then a cross bar could be mounted on the coaming with "J" bolts so there is an anchor place for the "straps" to hold down the lee board/shroud cross tube, something like i have done on my FOLBOT YUKON. On this boat there is a cross tube with also dowel on the inside that goes through the coaming/washboard and is held down by the home made sail mount. I would not suggest drilling a large hole in the Aerius 2 coaming, the hole in the YUKON coaming is where i use to fit my outriggers which are now behind the seat to allow paddling. So this will be another winter project to see if it works.


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