Balogh or Kayaksailor?

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DLee
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Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by DLee »

Alex, Gbellware, I know you guys each each have one of these rigs.

I've been giving some serious thought to getting the Balogh rig - but after just watching the videos from G's trip down through the keys again I'm kinda thinking the Kayaksailor rig might be an option.

The Balogh rig has more sail I believe, it also has the outrigger system which wouldn't have to be used. But with the bigger sail it's probably kinda desirable. G, did you ever feel like you would have like to have outriggers on your journey?

Alex, you've done some serious distance with the Balogh rig. How do you feel about the outriggers? How about the sail? Those built in airfoils look pretty nice. I understand the outrigger (and entire rig for that matter) can be installed while on the water, did you ever do that? Do the outriggers compromise paddling much? I'm thinking they must.

Would love to hear what you guys think of your rigs. G, is that a custom mount from Klepper? I seem to remember you saying something about that before?

Boy, I'm really jones'ing to get back out there. Shoveled about two feet of snow off my Boston Whaler cover today. It's dreaming time.

Dennis
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

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gbellware
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by gbellware »

Dennis,

Good luck with your decision, I really don't think you can go wrong. If money was no object I would own both rigs. But I will give you my thoughts on the Kuvia and my reasons for picking it.

The Kuvia sail is only 1.6 m2, but it is fully-battoned and, as a result, it "pops" into it's airfoil shape and is very, very efficient. It really moves my Klepper Quattro and is an absolute blast on my Feathercraft BK. I got the owner of Klepperamerica (Gerald) and the folks at Kuvia together to create a custom mount for the Klepper. Gerald now sells the rig for about $100 and it works great.

The Kayaksailer sail is, imo, very engineered and of very high quality. I have had it in some really challenging conditions and I have complete trust in the integrity of the rig.

The real plus for me is the unique design that lets me deploy or stow the rig in, literally, seconds. As far as I know it is the only upwind sailing rig that will do that. Stowed it is nearly invisible to the wind and deployed it will sail fairly close to the wind.

My only complaint is that the leeboards could be a bit longer for the Klepper as it's freeboard makes the windward "rudder" pretty much useless.

The rig is designed to be forgiving and stable without outriggers. The head of the sail twists under high forces and allows the rig to dump some wind in the event of a gust or if you are sailing a close reach under high winds. This is a really big deal for me, as I don't like the hassle of outriggers, especially when I am just paddling with sail stowed. Now, it is a different story with the Feathercraft. I have not flipped it...yet...but that is a real possibility. I would not depend on the Kuvia on my Big Kahuna in a self-supported "expedition" sail. I would not hesitate to take the Kayaksailer on my Klepper in any condition, anywhere.

Hope that helps,

g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Kleppers, A1 Expedition and carbon Quattro
Easy Riders, 18.6 and 17
Lots of BSD sails
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor

Alm

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by Alm »

The Balogh rig has more sail I believe, it also has the outrigger system which wouldn't have to be used.

Yes. The smallest Batwing is 24 sq.ft I think. Check their website. They also have downwind rigs, and most their rigs have outrigger optional - you may order without it.
But with the bigger sail it's probably kinda desirable.
If you sail open waters and sudden gusts or sudden increase of wind force to 20-30 knots is possible, anything larger than 10 sq ft may capsize even such a boat as AEII - there were such examples. It's not "if", but "when". I wouldn't like to lose my gear, food and fresh water in the middle of nowhere. In my last trip in Baja there was a couple of nasty moments where capsizing would likely mean losing the boat altogether - heavy wind, rocky shores and no people around. It was k1, not AEII, but like I said, anything can capsize without an outrigger. I'm a chicken in this case - prefer playing it safe.
The safest would be not to carry any upwind sail at all, and avoid paddling in areas with no people, campgrounds, reliable weather forecasts and VHF or cellphone coverage. No kidding.
How do you feel about the outriggers?
Safe. Also, - slow (see Part 2). Mind you, righting up the boat with 2-sided outrigger is more difficult than with 1-sided, but chances of having to do this are slim. Probably, less than chances of capsize without an outrigger.
Last edited by Alm on Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Alm

Balogh or Kayaksailor Part 2

Post by Alm »

How about the [Balogh Batwing] sail? Those built in airfoils look pretty nice.
It's called "camber", which is a standard feature of most sails. The distinctive feature of BSD Batwing is that it is Batwing shape - with spars laterally. Batwing shape is not something invented by Balogh - there are other "batwings" out there too. OTH, what is built in airfoil shape is Balogh leeboard, and it is huge and efficient.
I understand the outrigger (and entire rig for that matter) can be installed while on the water, did you ever do that?
In theory yes, and Mark Balogh says so, but in practice it is difficult to retrieve all that jazz from under decks, so I never did this on water. With outrigger and mast in place, the sail can be raised or lowered or reefed quickly on water, and this I did. Mast sticking up does create air resistance when paddling in calm day, but not as much as the raised sail, and not as much as hinged rigs like Kuwia (kayaksailor) with mast stowed on deck. Though, in heavy wind these stowed rigs do create a bit of air resistance and "splash resistance" - I never had Kuwia, but this was the case with Pacific Action stowed on deck (which I think has lower profile than Kuwia when stowed).
Do the outriggers compromise paddling much?
In my case they don't get in the way of paddle strokes, but they do slow you down - by 20-30% may be, due to water resistance of amas.

DLee
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by DLee »

Thanks guys.

Indeed G, if money were no object it would be nice to own both rigs. Both sound pretty great. The good news is that I currently own the full S4 rig and it works, with a whole bunch of available variation. Both the Kuvia and Balogh rigs seem much easier to work with. They also both seem to be well designed to perform as outfitted. The Kuvia sail being not so big and allowing the mast to twist and drop wind is a pretty interesting feature for non-outrigger cruising. On the other hand, the nice big Batwing on the Balogh combined with the outriggers seems like a package that you could set and sail in for long periods of time with little concern - making lunch, doing repairs, ha - kinda relaxing. There is little relaxing being done in my boat with the full S4 rig up and a steady wind blowing.

So of course another option is to just pick up the Balogh outrigger system to work with the S4 sails. That long lee board would be nice as well. Decisions decisions.

Alex, how did the Balogh outriggers handle 'weathery' conditions, or surf?

Dennis
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Alm

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by Alm »

combined with the outriggers seems like a package that you could set and sail in for long periods of time with little concern - making lunch, doing repairs, ha - kinda relaxing.
Yes. Not much repairs, and probably not much of making lunch, but you can relax while consuming your lunch, which I think is important. After consuming the lunch you can also use the sea or your local water body for your own body functions, proudly standing up and holding on to the mast. Facing downwind is recommended, for obvious reason. In heavy winds you won't feel like standing up, but a folding bucket works like a charm, without lifting the butt from the seat or opening the sprayskirt. Might seem like a minor thing, but when on 5-6 hours long passage, this becomes quite important. I keep it for occasional fish anyway.
Alex, how did the Balogh outriggers handle 'weathery' conditions, or surf?
Outriggers come at a price in many respects. Larger footprint when landing is one of them - you need to make sure that not only the boat, but also the amas don't drag over coral debris or barnacles etc. They don't get punctured easily, and Balogh offers more expensive heavy-duty amas additionally to standard ones, but still...
Disclaimer: I have standard amas, and so far only got cosmetic defects from landing in moderate wind on coarse sand with barnacle debris and volcanic rocks.

I usually make sure that the place where I am about to land, has a soft patch wide enough for boat and amas, and there is no heavy surf there. Other than that, "weatherly" conditions in open sea like waves crashing on deck and on outrigger, don't affect that structure - though a few times in waves made me wonder what happens if it suddenly does give in. Though, in those moments when weather induced this kind of worries, anything that would give in (mast, rudder, sail controls) would mean no good consequences.

DLee
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by DLee »

How do you spell relief? Akas and Amas. Ha! Hadn't really considered that.

Very funny Alex. I just happened to pick up a 2 gallon folding bucket at the local kayak shop last time I was there. Never really thought of that use for it... but why not?

The footprint however has crossed my mind. On my local lake I like to launch from the dock. But frankly, if I'm sailing there I might just go ahead and sail without the outriggers - probably more fun. On the sound however, I'd probably like their sense of security.

My favorite launch site is actually kinda narrow out there. If the sail is already rigged and ready to go, how much trouble is it to set up just the akas and amas once away from shore? The center section with leeboard can already be in place for launch correct? I should have taken a closer look at the boat show, what type of connection is used for the cross tubing? How about those Ama's(?), how much breath do they require ? Less or more than the sponsons? I'm guessing more...?

Thanks Alex, helpful stuff. Did you do your trip this year?

Dennis
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Alm

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by Alm »

Midsection of outrigger usually stayed attached to the boat on all boats that I had it on. Left and right "arms" are connected to that midsection via spring-ball pin through the male/female joint of 2 tubes. Arms have "male" inserts going inside the "female" midsection tube. Amas take about the same volume as sponsons of K1, may be 10 blows each, but I inflated them with a small pump that came with the rig (costs $5 or 6, and can be found it in other stores too). There is a bit of fumbling with tightening the ropes holding the ama to aka, so I don;t know how easy this would be on water. Probably doable in a wide boat like AEII.

The trip started last year and ended this year (Dec 2010 through Jan 2011). It was cooler and windier than I expected.

2 galon folding bucket was initially purchased as a bailer - using a regular kayak pump for such a volume is unrealistic. Other uses were discovered later...

DLee
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by DLee »

Hey Alex, just saw this post. Thanks for the details on the outrigger, that's what I was looking for.

How long was the trip - days?

Any new pictures? Did you stop in the same spots as before?

D
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Alm

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by Alm »

I didn't bring camera. Some stops were same as before, some were different. The trip was 22 days, plus flight time and a few days of camping at the start and finish points.

DLee
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by DLee »

Alex, Wow, no camera... you're a stronger man than I.

Just found this link on Long Haul of David Valverde sailing an MK1 with Balogh in pretty breezy weather.

Part 1 shows him putting the first reef in, Part 2 seems to show the sail getting the second reef. I think it's a pretty good demonstration of working with this rig while underway. Just reducing the mast by one section doesn't really look that easy, so setting up and breaking down the entire rig while out on the water may not be that easy as you mentioned earlier. Probably more feasible with the AII rather than the MK1.

http://www.youtube.com/user/LongHaulPro ... TYUdCmvcxI

I can't seem to make this link work, if you go to Long Haul Folding Kayaks > Community > Videos, you'll find it. Part 2 gets more interesting.

D
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Alm

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by Alm »

I have never had to reduce the mast by one section (when reefing). When sail becomes 1ft-2ft shorter after reefing, mast is sticking up 1ft- 2ft above the top of the sail, and I don't see any problem with that.

In a weather like in that link I usually reef before it becomes that windy, and if I haven't reefed when it was safe to do, I am trying to weather the storm with a larger sail than needed, unless it becomes really hairy. He almost lost the mast section, but, like I said, there was no need to mess with mast in the first place.

Setting up and breaking down the entire rig on water is a lot of work with any upwind rig and outrigger. Setting up and breaking down the rig like Kuwia on water would be very difficult, if possible at all - on water you don't have much access to the fore deck to strap all that parts in place. That's why most upwind rigs (if not all) are being partially set up while ashore, and then on water you only raise and lower the sail, and/or add outrigger arms to midsection and inflate the amas. Another reason to set it up ashore is that in multiday trips you often don't have enough room under decks to store all that jazz, so it's easier to carry it already installed.

DLee
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by DLee »

I'm pretty much decided on getting the Balogh rig, so in my dreams I have come up with another idea.

I've seen quite a few batwing sails on kayaks and canoes in my internet wanderings, but whenever I do there is never a jib used in conjunction with the batwing. Is there a reason for this? I'd like to try it.

Alex, I think I've seen you mention the use of two sails during your travels. I've also been thinking of rigging the smaller S4 rig as a mizzen on my AII. Any experience here?

Thanks,

D
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Alm

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by Alm »

DLee wrote: I've seen quite a few batwing sails on kayaks and canoes in my internet wanderings, but whenever I do there is never a jib used in conjunction with the batwing. Is there a reason for this?
According to M. Balogh, his mast, albeit larger diameter than Klepper S4 mast or Folbot upwind mast, is still not strong enough for a double stress of both main sail and jib without stays. (And stays make things complicated and not everybody likes them).
Alex, I think I've seen you mention the use of two sails during your travels.
Upwind 32 sq ft BSD 10" behind the center seat (technically a mizzen, but pretty close to midship), plus 11 sq ft PA on the fore deck. I wrote about it in 2009 Baja journal. It did help in low winds, but handling became more complicated, and it would've made more sense to simply get 36 sf or 38 sf BSD with reefs. Make sure you get at least 2 reefs if you go for BSD.
I've also been thinking of rigging the smaller S4 rig as a mizzen on my AII. Any experience here?
Not me, but Tord Eriksson used a home-made mizzen on his AEII. Lately he's been using only jib, one-sided outrigger and small side motor sitting on that outrigger, finding this most optimal for his needs. (His wife can't paddle when she is in the boat, and motor is a more reliable power than wind). Having only one ama, paddling is easier, boat with 2 people is stable enough with one ama and weight of the motor on that side, and if there is any tailwind or sidewind, with one ama it goes faster than with two. He has 2 HP 4-stroke Honda, though I would rather get 2 HP 4-stroke Suzuki. I don't think he dissembles his Klepper and sailing/motoring parts very often. Photos are here in the gallery, and live feedback from Tord you can get if log into http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailing_canoes/messages (registration is needed). Or find his old posts here at FKO and PM him.
Last edited by Alm on Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gbellware
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by gbellware »

I rigged the S4 jib to the Kuvia mast and main sail. Looked really cool but no way was the Kuvia mast beefy enough to handle the strain. I sent pics of the rigging off to Kuvia and they confirmed my concern. They also said they were in the process of fabricating a half-jib that will work with their mast. I am looking forward to it.

In the meantime, I did sail my Quattro with the Kuvia and the S4 jib, each on it's own mast. I was pretty disappointed with the results. Not only did it complicate control issues, as Alex mentioned, but it did not give me any significant pickup in power. I don't know if the jib was stealing wind from the Kuvia, but I suspect that was the case. The Kuvia is fully-battened and very efficient but I could not ever keep it in good trim with the Klepper jib out. Bear in mind the masts were very close together for practical reasons (about 18 inches apart) and there was no problem with the wind at my back. But sailing upwind was complicated and no more efficient than sailing with the Kuvia alone.

I know this is getting into esoterica, but for the few who are interested...

g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Kleppers, A1 Expedition and carbon Quattro
Easy Riders, 18.6 and 17
Lots of BSD sails
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor

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