Balogh or Kayaksailor?

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Alm

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by Alm »

2 masts 18" apart sure won't work well.

My case was different - 9 ft between 11 sq ft Pacific Action and 32 sq ft BSD, so there was no stealing of wind between the sails. Still, dealing with one too many controls turned out to be too much for me and I gave up. It helped in low tail winds and side winds, but not much. Other people tried same setup on Kruger Sea Wind (fiberglass hull similar in size to Longhaul MK1 or Klepper Ae1 SL), and said that PA addition did make a difference. Properly set up schooner rig is always more efficient than same size or smaller single sail, probably I didn't have PA in the right place or attached rigid enough.

It depends on what you are looking for (deciding on the number of sails) - more thrill, more speed at any cost, or more comfort. 2 sails is always more difficult to control than one sail, so this is reason enough to me.

DLee
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by DLee »

Esoterica perhaps, but I like it.

I don't know how, but the thought that all these sail rigs didn't have stays totally escaped me until Alex mentioned it. Now it makes complete sense that I'm not seeing any jibs with these rigs.

G, where does the Kuvia mast fall in relation to the Klepper mast hole? I always thought the kuvia sat kinda forward - I'll take a look at their site, or try and find your pictures again. I can imagine how those two rigs might not be too compatible. The Klepper jib must be close to the same size of the Kuvia sail isn't it?

If I were going to go with a motor I think it would have to be electric... but then solar panels, batteries, etc... hey G, there's a new idea for getting back up north on your downwind trips!

When I got my AII it actually came with the outboard motor mount. Still trying to think of something fun to do with it. So far mounting a rod holder on it is the best idea I've come up with...

I do like the idea of multiple sails. It can be challenging in many different ways, but when the jib and main on my S4 are working together properly, I think it's a pretty nice sight. Feels good too. I just find the gaff rig to be a real pain when trying to raise or lower it while underway. I also like the idea of the Baloghs efficiency and reefing capabilities. I guess I would need to add the stays if I wanted to play with the jib as well. I would get the 36 sport HP rig.

D
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Alm

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by Alm »

36 BSD - yes, probably, or 38. Don't remember which one has lower aspect - ask Dave at BSD. I have some gut feeling that lower CE is better, even with outrigger in place.

Re: raising/lowering BSD on water from partially assembled rig (lower mast section in place, or all the mast and outriggers in place, sail down and furled on deck).
Again, my case was different as I had that furled sail on the aft deck where it was looped around with bungee (to prevent it from unfurling into water), and didn't bother me. In AEII - don't know where this furled sail should be. The boom is 4ft long, but the widest point in sail is about 5 ft - depends on the sail size.

HP? Don't remember what this is. Don't read their website often.They have some new reinforced sail material, may be this is HP? I never felt that my regular material wasn't strong enough.

DLee
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by DLee »

They call it the 36 HP sport, here's a link to the page describing it:

http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/36HPSport.html

I like the fact that you can reef to 30, 28 and 22 Sq. ft.

On the Klepper rig I can drop the jib and roll her into a ball and stuff it under the forward deck. The main sail can be lowered and bungeed down or be removed from the mast and slid forward as well without having to separate the boom or gaff from the sail. I've done this out on the water and it's not too difficult, but it would be a challenge in adverse conditions. The most frustrating thing about the rig is the gaff. It has a U hook that rides up the mast, and inevitably you get the main sail 2/3rds of the way up and the U hook comes off. So you bring it all down, hook the gaff back up and try again. This can be very frustrating as I've had to do this routine a half dozen time to get the sail up. There's also a bit of binding that can get mixed up in all this which results in a feeling that the gaff is not at it's maximum height.

The rig itself is good enough to really consider just getting the Balogh outriggers - but I like the batwing sail. I do think I will put the stays on the balogh mast so I can run the Klepper jib with it.

The new material Balogh is using is mylar and is designed for very high performance. I'll get mine with the regular material. Apparently the mylar needs a bit of TLC when putting it away. You can't just bunch it up and throw it in the bag.

Looked at the Kuvia site, actually ended up on Klepper Facebook to see a little video of the Kuvia pulling an expedition AII. It really is moving surprisingly fast for that sail. It really is a very neat package. What's especially neat is the way the sail drops wind in gusts - basically eliminating the need for outriggers. An efficient use of inefficiency?

G, did you ever feel like you wanted outriggers with this rig?

D
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

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gbellware
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by gbellware »

When I rigged the S4 jib on the Klepper mast along with the Kuvia the whole setup was fairly complicated. The jib was rigged normally in the Klepper mast stay. I mounted the Kuvia with the front of the mainbody (the main frame of the sail) lashed to the Kleper mast; the middle of the mainbody resting on the top of the Klepper leeboard support; and the crosstube of the Kuvia lashed to the tee fittings on the Klepper combing. Then I rigged the sheets and downhaul for the jib so that I could easily strike the sail and completely stow it under the spray skirt while underway. So now I have two sets of leeboards, one with a pair of control rods; the downhaul and two sheets for the jib, the control sheet plus the other two hoisting lines for the Kuvia...yikes!

As for outriggers with the Kuvia alone, no, I would see no need for them. I have been in six foot seas with 25 mph wind and while it scared the crap out of me I did not feel out of control, ever. The wind was fairly steady and predictable, so that helped. But even with the occasional gust the was the rig has a built in safety feature which allows the top of the sail to twist out of the wind which both lowers the center of effort and dumps some power. Now, I was sailing a Quattro with about 150 pounds of gear plus me at 180 pounds and I think I would have to actually TRY to tip that thing. On my Kahuna it is a completely different story. I would not even try it in big waves and wind. There is a blogger somewhere in Scandinavia who has posted some video sailing his Kuvia on his Kahuna is some pretty big wind, and he looks really competent. Maybe with some more experience I will give it a try. Maybe.
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Kleppers, A1 Expedition and carbon Quattro
Easy Riders, 18.6 and 17
Lots of BSD sails
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor

DLee
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by DLee »

When I rigged the S4 jib on the Klepper mast along with the Kuvia the whole setup was fairly complicated. The jib was rigged normally in the Klepper mast stay. I mounted the Kuvia with the front of the mainbody (the main frame of the sail) lashed to the Kleper mast; the middle of the mainbody resting on the top of the Klepper leeboard support; and the crosstube of the Kuvia lashed to the tee fittings on the Klepper combing. Then I rigged the sheets and downhaul for the jib so that I could easily strike the sail and completely stow it under the spray skirt while underway. So now I have two sets of leeboards, one with a pair of control rods; the downhaul and two sheets for the jib, the control sheet plus the other two hoisting lines for the Kuvia...yikes!
Oh man, I had to laugh out loud when I read this. I've created some massive confusion in my own boats with lines and rigging but this really is hilarious. I was especially surprised to hear that you had both sets of lee boards down! Man, you are a glutton for punishment! What makes it really funny to me is that I can absolutely image trying this myself if I had both those rigs!

Did you see this clip of David Valverde sailing the MK1 with the 36 Balogh sail?

http://www.youtube.com/user/LongHaulProducts

How does this compare to your sailing with the Kuvia?

D
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

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gbellware
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by gbellware »

Glad to provide some comic relief. I was actually laughing at myself when I got the contraption rigged. It felt like "snakes on a plane" with all the sheets in the cockpit.

Yes, I saw those vids and all they make me do is long to get back out on the water. His experience feels, from the perspective of the fixed camera, a whole lot like mine. What a hoot. He looks like he is having a blast.

On a related topic, on my last trip I was maintaining speeds of 7+ mph (gps) on a run with a top speed recorded of 10.1 mph. I know I was helped with following waves and with surfing, but the speed seemed in contradiction with the often-quoted "maximum hull speed" formula, e.g. 1.4 X the square root of the length/waterline of the boat. That formula would put the theoretical top speed of my kayak at about 5.8 mph. So what gives? I did some research and it turns out there is no such thing as "maximum hull speed", even for a non-planing hull. Speed is a function of power, whether from a prop or from the wind. Sure, the gain in speed diminishes as speed increases, but theoretically you could approach the speed of light in my kayak given enough power. There is some very cool literature on this. Cool if you are a geek like me, that is.

g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Kleppers, A1 Expedition and carbon Quattro
Easy Riders, 18.6 and 17
Lots of BSD sails
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor

DLee
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by DLee »

Those are pretty good speed, especially when sustained.

Funny that you mention that 'speed limit' thing. I read that just last night and though ' nah, I don't think so...' for two reasons, one; I've broken that speed with my S4 rig, and two; in the simplest scenario, an outboard would easily bust that theory. I read a lot of Sci-fi and it was fun to see you mention Lightspeed. The same image was coming to my mind as I read your posting, ha. And here I thought I was finally joining an IN crowd with folding kayakers... disappointed again...

D
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Alm

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by Alm »

"Miles" is a bit confusing when talking about boats. Under ideal conditions (no oncoming or side waves) a boat of that size and shape with good rudder and enough sail can sustain up to 8-9 knots (8-9 nautical miles per hour); not always possible under sails, since wind without waves doesn't happen too often. On flat water 2-3 HP outboard can push it at about same 8 knots, with throttle at 1/2 or 2/3. More throttle would be dangerous - this structure isn't rigid enough for that power, not to mention trim problems. Convert this to statute miles (road miles) at 1.15.

This is - without outrigger. With outrigger it would be able to a couple knots faster, but paddling it becomes a pain in calm weather and real royal pain in the ars in light headwind (when sail is useless) or opposing current.

MoeJoe

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by MoeJoe »

gbellware wrote:I would not even try it in big waves and wind. There is a blogger somewhere in Scandinavia who has posted some video sailing his Kuvia on his Kahuna is some pretty big wind, and he looks really competent. Maybe with some more experience I will give it a try. Maybe.
Who's that? Would be cool to get the link. (If you're talking about me, which I doubt, I don't know about that, I rely mostly on a mix of good reflexes, stupidity, luck & belief in my ability to swim and recover if needed. :lol: )

I've god adverts out for selling my Kahuna, but I'm keeping the sail for sure. If I find a buyer, I might go for the Nautiraid Narak (with rudder option). That should have potential for offering quite a sporty ride with the 1.6 Kuvia rig, that requires more attention with the paddle for support strokes. Except in extreme cases with the Kahuna in the conditions I've been in, leening + possibly letting out the sail is enough. Never managed to tip over last summer & autumn with the Kahuna, even with wind and gusts up towards 11-12 m/s. Still haven't tried the reefed sail option. As said, the sail schreds wind nicely when conditions could potentially be overpowering. But I'm hoping for higher average and top speeds with a longer and slightly narrower kayak. (As well as a folding kayak that is more fun without sail of course)

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gbellware
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Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by gbellware »

Moe Joe, that sailer I referenced would be you. The clips I saw of your sailing were very cool, and I am not sure I would be comfortable in my Kahuna under the same conditions. Best of luck with your search for a new "ride", and please let us know how it all works out.

Best,
g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Kleppers, A1 Expedition and carbon Quattro
Easy Riders, 18.6 and 17
Lots of BSD sails
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor

HeavyWeather

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by HeavyWeather »

Having tried now tried both I would say it depends on your application.

BSD rig is great is you have dependable winds, you want stabililty, and you will not be depending on paddling for propulsion. Paddling with the BSD outriggers is a pain. Yes, you can set it up on the water... but plan ahead and put the crossbar on before launching (without the ama extensions). The reefing on the BSD sail is awesome. You can still upwind it fairly well fully reefed. If you have the need for speed, this is a fun rig. If you want to log some milage under sail, I'd pick this one.

The Kayaksailor rig is a beautiful piece of engineering. If looking at it doesn't make your heart sing, well I can't help you. I does require more active helmsmanship, especially in gusty conditions. Yes, it spills wind but when it's gusty active sheeting is required. I tried the 1.4 reefed down in 20-25 mph winds yesterday, but could not make much headway upwind. I finally gave up on the reefing and just went for it, worked out better. Steady winds are fun. Gusty winds are a lot of work without the outriggers. Being able to paddle at the same time is a major benefit to this rig, I love this. I am looking forward to trying the Kayaksailor on some longer trips. The early experiences are great.

Honestly I'm glad to have both. Worth saving up for IMHO.

FrankP

Re: Balogh or Kayaksailor?

Post by FrankP »

This Sunday I took my wife and our LHMK 2 w/1.6 m Kayaksailor & Genoa out and had a great time. It was our third time out since we bought it and by far the best wind so far. I checked the weather and the wind was fairly steady at 10-14 MPH. We had very little trouble tacking into the wind and had pretty good speed. Several times I had to paddle through a tack but we were able to build up enough speed to tack without paddling too. The waves were about 1 ft. On port tacks we seemed to go a little slower and watching the video again I noticed the sail was ever so slightly luffing once in a while when I would get to close to the wind. I had no problem with starboard tacks. What can I say about running downwind wing on wing. Wow that was fun! I wish my phone app speedometer worked Sunday. It has always worked before so I don't know what went wrong. We were definitely going faster in any direction than the first time with 8 MPH wind.

I have the KS mounted on the Klepper America mount and like it very much. It is strong, stable and quick to install. I still have to install the Genoa cleats but my wife loves to play with the sheets.

Good sailing!

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