Tell tails & BSD

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FrankP

Tell tails & BSD

Post by FrankP »

One thing I never notice on BSD sails are Tell-tails. Do people use them & if so do you place them so they still work when reefed? "Is one enough or is 3 too many"? (old prune joke sorry) I have one set on my KS and I like using it to see that the sail is sheeted properly.

I also wonder about mast side stays. I've seen some videos where the mast is bending quite a bit in higher wind.

DLee
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Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by DLee »

Frank I think staying the BSD mast is a great idea. You might ask Mark about it in terms of location. Since your mast is in the middle of the boat you might want to tie down into the cockpit or out along the edge of the hypalon hull. I seems to me that the upper canvas around the cockpit wouldn't have the same sort of support that the canvas does when the mast is in the forward hole.

An interesting and simple experiment would be to simply make a belt that wraps beneath the hull - like 2" webbing - and tie the mast to it on either side. I could help you with some very simple knots to make it real tight. This temporary rig would give you a good idea if you actually need it or not. Actually, you could probably simply tie lines down to the outrigger right?

BTW - I know you want to incorporate the KS here... but is it recommended to have the single BSD in the center of the boat? Pretty sure DoiNomazi have theirs center as well.

What are the thoughts on mounting that 36' sail forward? Just curious... I haven't heard this discussed before.

I have't actually used tell tales yet. I really should. What's the little gizmo on top of the mast called that indicates wind direction? I want one of those as well next to my VHF extension, wind guage, and flotation device... ha. I'd ask Valverde. He's done a lot of sailing with these bad boys.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by FrankP »

Dennis when I said telltails I mean the two strings on either side of the sail. Usually red and green. They tell you when the sail is flowing the best air across both sides of the sail for the best lift and therefore the best drive. The taller the sail the more you need to know how the sail is shaped.

My plan now is to find out where I can place a standing line on the mast that won't interfere with the sail and cleat them off on the akas. It would seem if I had control of the tension on the side stays it would help support the mast in heavier wind. I remember one day out on a 2 mile long lake with wind in the 15 mile per hour range my left side stay came loose on the 1.6 m KS. The mast was bending a lot with the force of the wind. I was afraid it would be damaged. I beached and my wife secured the stay and all was well again. It just seems to make sense to support the mast. You never see a sailboat without them so why not on a kayak?

john allsop
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Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by john allsop »

Frank, my Triak dosn,t have mast "stays" (shrouds). The sail is furled and unfurled by rotating the mast so wrapping the sail or unwrapping the sail around it. This stops the use of these supports. I have thought of a rotating ring type thing that could be on the mast and still allow the mast to rotate with shrouds in place. It is a very good and simple way to furl the sail from the seat. Of course our folders are some what differant but some people who have Folbots with an unsupported mast have made similar systems to my Triak although Folbot don,t supply a mast "rotating set up".

ChrisO

Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by ChrisO »

Frank,

About tell tales: They are usually placed along the leech of the sails at the end of the batten pockets and about a bit back from the mast (main) or luff (jib, if used) in the belly, really essential for performance sailing. Unlike prunes, one is never too much.... The tell tales along the leach can be any color, I prefer black. Red/green is indeed handy for the one(s) placed in the belly. I have simply always used plain black acrylic yarn from the fabric store. The skein I bought decades ago will outlive me by generations! West Marine (mail order) is a good source for the fancier versions.

Stayed and unstayed masts. Unstayed masts have been around a long time, an example is the all American cat boat! The mast and deck structure just have to be strong enough for the mast to act as a cantilever. A realistic design load on a kayak mast would be about 5psf on the sail area, corresponds to a wind speed of 45mph (0.00256 x V squared). I doubt you would be sailing in those conditions in a kayak...
The mast deflection is a funny thing: A nice and stiff mast might transmit more power to the boat by maintaining the sail shape, but an unstayed whippy mast spills out air from the top of the sails when you want that most: In heavy air when you begin to get overpowered. Sort of an automatic reef! For some really crazy mast bend in stayed rigs, look at photo's of compettitive DN ice boats! Bendy masts are also used to flatten out the sails for less drag. But yes, it is nice to be able to control mast bend. Hence the popularity of the fractional rig versus the mast head type in racing sail boats.

Dennis,
The thing at the top of the mast is the wind vane, often just called the Windex (after a popular maker, not that blue stuff). Not sure how well these would fare in a capsize?

Now before anyone thinks that I have any expertise in kayak sailing, I don't! I just used to sail competitively on the Bay and really got into it in a one design fleet. Long time ago, life moves on.

Chris

DLee
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Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by DLee »

Some great points there Chris, Thanks.

Wind Vane, capsize… you might have a point there…

I'm going to get some tell tales for sure.

I did just get a classic Klepper flag and mast from the fellow advertising an AEII in the for sale section. It won't be up high, but it will be fun to keep an eye on while underway.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by FrankP »

Thanks Chris. I thought of the fractional rigging but it would not allow the sail to slide up the mast so only a top mast stay will work on a BSD.
My first plan is to see what happens with no mast stay & then experiment on one to see if there is any difference.

DLee
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Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by DLee »

I picked up some tell tales today and a wind vane for the top of the mast… and, some high strength narrow line to replace my rudder cables with. I'm constantly getting pricked by the cables and like the idea of being able to cut the lines if I somehow got tangled in them.

There's a great illustration in the tell tale package on reading them. I'll try and scan it later - our scanner has been getting a little cranky lately.

Frank, did you get your BOSS outrigger yet? I was wondering if the BOSS Ama's(?) - the pontoon part - would fit on the Hobie rig? You do have the Hobie outrigger set-up right?

Thanks,

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by FrankP »

Not yet Dennis. My guess is the BSD akas are bigger than the Sidekicks akas.
I saw a picture of a kayak w/BOSS outriggers & there is a red line w/cleat on one aka that runs down to the ama &a green line on the other.What are these for?

DLee
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Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by DLee »

Without seeing the picture my guess is that the lines might offer some type of lateral support for the Akas… got a link?

I'm guessing the red and green colors are simply a reminder for port and starboard.

Let me know if you want to sell your Hobie sidekick rig when you get the BOSS. I have an idea I'd like to play with and a second Hobie rig might make it easy to try out.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by FrankP »

Dennis I will let you know about the Sidekicks. Knowing my wife she may want them too for the boat. I'm going to steer her away from that but she would have outriggers on people too. JUST IN CASE!

DLee
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Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by DLee »

Standing by… let me know.

You know it wouldn't be a terrible thing for you guys to do a practice flip and get wet… once, maybe… just to see what it's like. That in itself might relax your wife considerably - do it in warm weather - It's a little scary at first, the next thing you know you're in the water and your vest is completely holding you up and it's fine! Everything's fine! You flip the boat back up and climb back in. Good exercise for all sorts of reasons. Know what I mean?

I'm guessing if you decide to try this you might want to get a ladder to help your wife get back into the boat. You could hold the opposite side of the boat down while she climbs in and then do a cowboy entry yourself. Would your wife consider practicing that?

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by FrankP »

I hope to try a self rescue this summer but the truth is it sure feels good to be dry & warm inside the kayak. It should be easier with the BOSS amas. I will let you know about the Sidekicks. My opinion is they are not needed.

DLee
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Re: Tell tails & BSD

Post by DLee »

In the right conditions you'll have a blast. Take the grandkids out with you and have everyone jump out and climb back in. I actually started snorkeling regularly from my boat. I either anchor the boat or hold the line and drag it around with me while I go exploring… I love it.

I think you could have a blast with the grandkids out there.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

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