KS speed

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DLee
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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KS speed

Post by DLee »

Went out last week and had a very pleasant day with hardly a boat in sight.

There was the gentlest breeze blowing at home and when I got to LI Sound there was 10-15 Knot wind blowing, 2' breaking seas, and a small craft advisory in affect.

I decided to launch at the mouth of Saugatauck Harbor so I could stay in slightly calmer waters. But once out and KS sail up the wind didn't seem so bad so I traversed the edge of the big water for a bit before making the decision to sail out to one of the islands. The breakers calmed to rolling swells and the wind dropped to less than ten knots for sure (still don't have the windmeter) and it was quite manageable.

I didn't turn my GPS on until my return from the island which was about 1.5 NM back to the car. I averaged 2.8 knots with a top speed of 4 knots during this half hour run. Conditions where pretty much optimal with plenty of wind from the perfect direction for sailing to my destination, and yet, I could only make 4 knots speed wise.

I feel like my KS sailing is always really slow with my AEII. It seems to me like others here are hitting 6-8 knots more commonly. Is this correct?

I bought some tell tales and a top mast wind indicator a while back and I forgot to mount them before this past trip. I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong...

Has anyone made discoveries here that I might be overlooking?

Thanks,

d

BTW - Frank, I see on the Long Haul Facebook page that your boat is ready for sailing! Looks great!
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: KS speed

Post by FrankP »

Dennis UPS says they will have the frame parts and the sail rig here this Wednesday by end of day. I am really looking forward to seeing what it looks like assembled.

My wife and I sailed 25 times last season on inland lakes in various conditions. I think the strongest wind was 15-18 MPH. Our top sail speed was 7.2 MPH without me paddling. We could get about the same speed into the wind as we did with the wind. My favorite is into the wind but with the new sail added who knows. I can see us now going wing on wing running with the wind. How can it get any better? We rarely had to settle for 3.5-4 MPH and if we did I was paddling to keep up the speed. My wife and I can paddle at 4.5 MPH without a problem in the MK2. This year I am going to set my speedometer app on my phone to knots. I don't have a GPS yet. Once I was asked why sail when sometimes due to tacking it takes longer to get back than to paddle straight to the boat ramp? Simple answer..."it's much more fun to sail there". Who knows maybe I should have a sailboat instead of a kayak with sails but if the wind stalls we can paddle back. Plus I can't afford a sailboat!

We have a Genoa also and a 1.6 M KS. What is yours? My KS came with Teltales. My wife kept it pretty well trimmed out on the water but she gets nervous when we heel over with the wind. That's why I bought the Sidekicks. She wants to see if we need them along with the BOSS outriggers. I think not but what do I know? She will figure that out.

DLee
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Re: KS speed

Post by DLee »

Can't wait to see the new rig Frank. I would definitely sail with the BSD solo before getting complicated... ha.

I have the exact same KS rig as you; 1.6+

I don't know what it is... I just can't get much speed outa the thing. The one time I was out in blasting winds on Lake Champlain I couldn't make any forward motion at all - I could do perpendicular to the wind and that was about it. Seemed like the waves and wind where beating the hull back more than the sail was able to propel forward. I ended up dropping the sail and paddling straight into the wind for an hour and then sailed downwind as the weather mellowed.

I don't usually beat into the wind too much, but I do try to make a point of not losing ground to the wind when I can. To me that's the real entertainment.

I am very anxious to hear how you two get along with the new rig. Has your wife seen the infamous 'U-boot' footage? Not sure she'd be a big fan of that, ha.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: KS speed

Post by FrankP »

D I guess I'm not sure either why you don't sail faster into the wind. We did fine but maybe we never faced wind as strong as you did. Keep an eye on your teltales when you put them on. They will tell you when your sail is trimmed best. My wife says the Genoa seems to pull pretty well too. Again we commonly sailed at 6.3 knots (7.2 MPH) on the best days with winds in the low teens (MPH) & 4.5-5 on days with winds around 10 MPH. Sometimes I helped by paddling once in a while. (You have to get some exercise every now and then). I have a video that shows my wife asking if she should take down the sail as we were beating at 5+ MPH. "I said why spoil a great sailing day with paddling"? There is just something so cool and relaxing hearing the wind & water go by as we sail. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy paddling too but sailing is just more fun! It could be that I have never done it before last year so it is very new.

The one thing I was least pleased with the KS was the leeboards. Tacking sometimes it seemed we lost "ground" because the leeboards would not stop us from sliding sideways. I really hope the 4 ft leeboards on the BSD rig stops that.

If the sail & frame parts come early enough tomorrow and it is not raining I hope to assemble it & take some pictures.

idc
lord high faltbotmeister
Posts: 505
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: KS speed

Post by idc »

Dennis,
I don't have the answer to your question, but the sailing canoe guys on Song of the Paddle may well. There are some very experienced sailors among them. See here.
They recently answered a guy with a similar question to yours about disappointing performance (though with a rather different style of canoe sail rig) here. In his case they blamed the leeboard and sails. Is it possible a bigger leeboard might make a difference?
There aren't many Kuvia Kayak Sails in the UK, but Flat Earth seem to be gaining a following in Scotland. There is a good blog on kayak sailing Scotland's beautiful west coast, some great photos, and good tips here.
All the best,
Ian

ChrisO

Re: KS speed

Post by ChrisO »

Dennis,

What was your point of sail?
I highly recommend tell-tales when close hauled and reaching. I considered them absolutely vital when I raced my old Bear. Not just to get the best sail shape, but especially to keep from pinching when close hauled.
Then experiment with the sail adjustments and rig settings in addition to changing sail trim based on points of sail, all while keeping an eye on the knot meter. Suddenly you might have that "aha" moment where it all falls into place!
Can you readily control twist in the main? With the large roach in the KS sail it looks easy to have the top back winded while the foot is stalled. Tell tales will tell the tale!
Then, how is the helm? Can you get a slight weather helm in moderate wind? A heavy helm resulting in a stalled rudder is not so fast either.
Naturally, the best and fastest way to get dialed in for speed is to sail against someone with the same set-up as yours. That is how it worked for me! Boy, was I slow at first. Funny memory: The fiercest competition in the fleet was for, actually to avoid, last place! But then I picked up pointers, experimented and finally got dialed in to where I could keep up with the old sly foxes who had been doing it for decades.

Chris

DLee
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Re: KS speed

Post by DLee »

Thanks Ian, I'll be checking out those Links! Great.

Thanks Chris.

I'll get the tell tales on, and see about making a temporary fit for the wind indicator I picked up. Other than sail trim adjustments making changes on the KS is rather time consuming and not the easiest thing to do out on the water. I'm not even sure you can adjust that much on the rig. It's pretty well thought out and assembled as a ready to go unit.

It seems to me that the jib/genoa spends a lot of it's time blowing back into the main sail unless the Main is trimmed almost to center. The top of the batwing definitely has a different shape than the foot under sail but that seems the nature of the beast. Is this is a tendency of all batwings?

I almost always have weather helm with the KS leeboards. I remember once trying the Klepper Lee boards and it seemed to work much better. I should try that again because I don't remember the details. I don't think I'm stalling it too often … but a closer eye on the rudder might be prudent. It apparently doesn't take much to stall the rudder and start scrubbing speed, I didn't know that.

Possibly the biggest culprit is side slipping because of the smaller leeboards. Which is a topic we've all discussed before here. Side slipping and oversteering to compensate? perhaps...

More experimentation is in order. Thanks again for the tips.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

ChrisO

Re: KS speed

Post by ChrisO »

Dennis,

I am sure that the basic setup is perfectly fine. But sail cloth and lines do stretch over time and there is always the need for speed!
Yes, some adjustments have to happen on shore. One clever character I know used to hog the guest dock at his yacht club, which had the perfect orientation to the wind, to adjust his rigging with the sails up!

See if you can adjust the jib fairleads in and out to adjust the slot between jib and main. Do the same forward and back to balance foot and leach on the jib. A bit of back winding is fine, it keeps the airflow attached to the back of the main. Some twist is normal, you just want to be able to control it. Trial and error.

Weather helm: Tensioning the halyards for both main and jib will move the center of effort forward, reducing weather helm. Can you angle, or move, the leeboards back a bit? This moves center of resistance back, also reducing weather helm.

Yikes, I used to make a study of all this, even sitting in a class room...
Overall the big speed killers are pinching (pointing too high) and stalling sails or rudder.

Chris

FrankP

Re: KS speed

Post by FrankP »

Chris you are right about the space between the Genoa and the mast. I loosened ours and it allowed the Genoa to move easier around the main sail. Even wing on wing (sort of) there is not that much of the Genoa on the other side of the main sail when you are running downwind. It is pretty small. Only .6 M making the set 2.0M.

I don't think there is any adjustment for the halyard. unless you tie a new knot in the line. From Kuvia the halyard is pretty hard to pull through the keyhole for my wife.

Weather helm or sliding in a tack was a constant problem last year. It may be that a Long Haul MK2 or Klepper A2 is too big for the relatively narrow leeboards. Even with 2 there is not enough lateral resistance to keep the yak from sliding.

DLee
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Location: South Salem, NY
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Re: KS speed

Post by DLee »

I don't think there is any adjustment for the halyard. unless you tie a new knot in the line. From Kuvia the halyard is pretty hard to pull through the keyhole for my wife.
Frank, I did just that. I tied another knot in the red line, maybe a 1.5" down from the original. I really had to stretch the line to get it through the keyhole and finally one day when I was making changes on the jib sheets I decided to tie the second knot in the red halyard. It makes a huge difference in getting the sail up easier and as near as I can tell there is no negative affect to the main sails positioning.

One other problem I have run across several times now is not being able to raise the sail back up after lowering it while out on the water. This was terribly perplexing and wasted a lot of my time on two occasions as I had to paddle a long distance back to shore to get my sail back up.

Very simply, if you're not headed directly into the wind when lowering the sail as KS suggests; the jibstay may not fall into place on top of the sliding mast car. If this happens, no amount of pulling on the black mast line will raise the sail. I finally figured out the problem and can now fix it out on the water by using the paddle blade to move the jibstay line back onto the car. Not always easy to do… but doable.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

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