2nd sail

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DLee
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by DLee »

One more thing, I was thinking about your concerns of capsizing. Have you given any thought to how you would right the rig if that happened?
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robonaboat
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by robonaboat »

Dennis, I have done a capsize drill when sailing one sail without outriggers, maybe about 10 knts wind and I was surprised how easy it to right and reenter. I haven't tried with outriggers, but have thought the process through. It could be done, but not easy in the type of severe conditions that would cause a capsize with outriggers. And I've wondered what damage could be done during the capsize. Maybe none, considering what the boat and rig have taken so far with no ill effect. I have an idea I may use eventually to strengthen where thwart tube joins coaming, which may be the weakest link. I like to over engineer things. Solo with the schooner rig I've been tying off sheets to the star knobs, but I'm about to attach two more cam cleats to the thwart tube for that job. To get it self steering I have to angle the leeboard just right as well as the two sheets just right to get the desired direction. It can be useful sometimes to retract the rudder to get CLR further forward, and it gives a little more windage astern, both things which will point you higher. It's easier on a beam and close reach, but ok on broad reach and to a much lesser extent straight downwind if in light winds and small seas. I've nearly fallen asleep while the boat self steers in light conditions and me lying down, head on back seat, legs either side of centre mast, pedals folded down. But I'm researching and thinking through the canopy idea for a more comfortable nights sleep in a different position, at anchor. And it will be different if/when I go to the ketch rig. I'm trying to get the optimum schooner rig setup first. I'd like to just bivy in there one fine night soon to test the right spot and get more ideas. It's still early days. I'm glad you're interested too. Sleeping in a double seems to be a scarce attraction. Should we take that part of the discussion to another spot? If we want to continue it? Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

DLee
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by DLee »

We probably should take the canopy/camping idea to another spot. I've seen an interesting attachment method in Wooden Boat. I'll try and describe it when we get the new thread going.

I'm sure that a capsize with outriggers is possible when everything just goes wrong at the same moment and probably when larger waves are involved. Every capsize that I have experienced and seen has been a relatively slow motion procedure. The only damage that my boat has sustained is a broken boom when I unknowingly let myself fall into the sail during capsize. Apparently this is a big no no for just that reason. One time I lost my jib because it was rolled up and stowed below the front cockpit... that was a major bummer. Now pretty much everything gets tied down when I sail.

I'm guessing the flexibility of these rigs is probably their saving grace in these moments, along with deep water. It might not be a terrible idea to have safety lines running to each outer aka section so that you could quickly just disconnect a side and let it hang on it's safety line as you roll the boat upright. I imagine that roll with be slow going with two big sails on the rig.

Worst case scenario would be flipping over in shallow water where the masts could hit bottom. I'm guessing in that situation you would drop the aka/ama on the appropriate side and just try and keep the masts from going under. My boat always turtles within moments of a capsize. Hobie makes a flotation 'thing' for the top of their catamaran mast but it's huge. I'd like to hear any good ideas you might have for mast flotation. One other important tool for capsize is a quickly deployed anchor. This can keep you from drifting into harms way while your boat is giant flotsam. I keep a 5 gallon canvas bucket in the boat when sailing. Depending on where I am I either keep an electric bilge pump in the bucket with a sponge, or 150' of line and anchor, with a sponge. The bucket is fantastic for moving major amounts of water after a capsize and the pump, which runs on three D cells is just amazing when you need it. I also carry the standard kayak pump but it only comes out at the bitter end of pumping and bailing.

Got any video of your schooner sailing?
Klepper Aerius II
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Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
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BSD 36HP

robonaboat
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by robonaboat »

You've got me going, but there's too much to say really. My masts are foam filled but the boat does a 180 quite quickly. I wouldn't put more flotation up there because it's too much windage. It comes back up easily so it's not a problem if everything's waterproof and tied in. After righting from my only capsize the water was only an inch above the seat base. I believe the extra quattro sponsons inflated help tip water out as it comes up. And I often carry almost everything I would take on an expedition, except all the food and water, so the boat handles more as if it was. The vacant space in the ends and above the luggage is packed with flotation bags and topped with the spray cover. I'm trying to learn the best packing system. It must help the righting too with the heavy stuff on the middle bottom and flotation above it, and it displaces water. So I have aboard, anchor, 30m line with 2m chain, sea anchor, sponge, kayak pump, folding bucket, but no electric pump yet. A capsize with outriggers is only in my mind so far, as this. Detach leeward aka arm with its ama, and hold onto it as I right the boat. Then either swim around to windward side and reattach or board and reattach. Holding onto the free aka/ama while righting the boat may or may not be awkward in big wind/seas. By the way, I have done a full assembly and disassembly of the entire outrigger and sail rig in relatively calm seas. Two suggestions: 1 If you have the spraycover on you are less likely to drop a coaming clamp bolt over the side. You must be careful with the star knobs for same reason. 2 If your partner leans out the other way it's easier to attach and detatch the aka with the ama with the thwart tube. If solo, the aka/ama goes on last with the sail already up and heeling the boat the opposite way to which you want to lean out. Reverse tack for the other side. You make a good point Dennis, I remember reading about traditional boats with rope lashings to hold outriggers, and other parts. The flexibility in the system is supposed to be an important reason these boats survive storms at sea. Sorry I don't have camera or video. Over to you Dennis or anyone. Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

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gbellware
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by gbellware »

Really interesting discussion about 2nd sails and sailing. This is all so very complicated, even with a single sail like the kayaksailer, with or without jib. The way I like to envision the forces of wind, leeboard, and rudder is to think of the kayak as a compass needle, with the leeboard representing the pivot point. Because our kayaks have no keelboard they have very little to resist side-slipping and rotating. The longer the boat, the more resistance to slip and rotation (better tracking) but it is still not nearly what a real sailboat, with a deep keelboard, can accomplish. So the force of wind, transmitted through the sail (and through the exposed hull, which can act as a sort of sail) will cause the kayak to rotate about the leeboard (and simultaneously slip to lee). The closer you point into the wind, the more pronounced the rotational force. And the more rotational force, the more rudder input needed to counter that force and keep your heading. And THAT is where the a huge expense of energy takes place, and a corresponding loss of speed. (Never mind the drag of a ama, which will add to the lee helm -- the tendancy to point away from the wind-- every time it is in the water except on a downwind course.)

Now, add a second sail and you screw up everything I just wrote. With a mizzen alone you get, usually, a weather helm -- the boat wants to point into the wind -- and requires rudder input to actually steer away from the wind on a reach or close haul. (Mind you, I am not a real sailor, I just play one in a kayak. Real sailors could go on for hours about these forces and argue about how to balance to get the most out of each dynamic to go FAST. And I have not mentioned, and don't understand, the impact of changes that happen when the boat heels and the effective shape of the hull changes.)

Add a mizzen to a traditional main or forward mounted sail like the kayaksailer and you begin to balance things out, maybe getting to an almost neutral rudder on a reach, which is very efficient. You can imagine how the leeboard can be adjusted to fine-tune this: forward to counter lee helm and back to counter weather helm. The leeboard will have that effect even under a single sail, but the diminutive profile of the kayaksailer boards have little effect on a big boat like the quattro, especially a 545. I think Dennis was working on some improvements, I look forward to those.

Roberto's comments on how his boat behaves with different sheeting and leeboard positioning is spot on and describes how the forces I just touched on come to play when on a run. And, fwiw, the kayaksailer is an extremely efficient rig except when flying with the wind, where is just doesn't seem to transmit energy the way it does on a reach. Even wing-on-wing it just feels a little weak.

OK, enough rambling, time to get out on the water.

g
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DLee
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by DLee »

That is an excellent description Greg! Spot on. As I understand it.

d
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robonaboat
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by robonaboat »

Yes Greg, great summary of the forces involved. I agree with Dennis yet again. You must stop stealing my thoughts mate. I would have been longer winded and lost everyone. As Greg stated right at the start, it's much more complicated, and as I read it I found myself thinking ,..Yes as long as... Yes providing that...Except for...But not forgetting also...And all other things being equal. I can't comment much on the KS, not having used one, but I don't doubt Greg is correct there too. If I don't get off this forum I'll never complete the changes on my boat and get out to test them. We would save time if we could sit round a table together with pencils and paper for doing diagrams. Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

DLee
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by DLee »

We would save time if we could sit round a table together with pencils and paper for doing diagrams. Roberto
I love that idea, but let's put a boat on the table!

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
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BSD 36HP

robonaboat
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by robonaboat »

Dennis, again I thought that we needed a boat in the room as well but didn't put it down cause I figured it may have been seen as over the top. Of course there may be a few others silently agreeing with us. Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

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