2nd sail

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FrankP

Re: 2nd sail

Post by FrankP »

My daughter took this picture of us from their pontoon boat. Very slack wind today. :(
http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/Frank ... sort=3&o=1

Don
t spare my feelings, what do you think of this sail combo. My wife wants to buy another matching BSD in either a 24 or 32 HP Sport but...

FrankP

Re: 2nd sail

Post by FrankP »

I don't use a Garmin GPS but I have a speedometer APP on my cell phone. The other day I saw that it was using 20 satellites. The wind measurement was a guess based on what the combination of 3 weather Apps were reporting when we went out. The highest speeds were when we had gusts at 15+. Again that is what they predicted. I should buy a GPS & anemometer but I figure why unless these readings are that wrong. Next time I will make sure the App is reading knots. There are 3 options: MPH, KPH or KNOTS.
I wonder if your GPS is correct. It sure seems you should be able to get more than 3.6 knots out of a 20 knot wind.
If you watch the videos I put on the first two are close hauls into the wind & the last one is running with the wind. The odd thing is people say they have issues sailing into the wind. We seem to have better luck and speed into the wind than with. I also think it;s more fun too. People say they paddle about 3-4 MPH. That's 3.45 - 4.6 Knots. I don't see why with as much wind as you had, you would be sailing that slow unless you were pointed too high into the wind.

FrankP

Re: 2nd sail

Post by FrankP »

Roberto, thanks for your explanation of your experiences with your similar setup. Yeterday, with slack winds and a gust from time to time we figured out exactly what you reported. Only we were on either a close haul or a beam reach. I noticed with the rudder not being used, when a gust would get us going, if I sheeted in the main the kayak would turn into the wind a little more. I have not played much with the leeboard but I have it angled back most of the time. BTW, the leeboard handle makes a nice place to dry out your hat or just hold it. We will try more with the foresail but I think my wife may want to buy another BSD that matches the 36.

DLee
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by DLee »

Boy, if my wife wanted to buy anything for the kayak it would be ordered before she had time to think about it! ha.
People say they paddle about 3-4 MPH. That's 3.45 - 4.6 Knots.
You got that one reversed Frank... 3 knots = 3.45 mph

I was a little surprised by Roberto's numbers as well. Thinking they should be higher... I was hoping to see a little more on the high end than 8.3 knots. But I wouldn't be surprised if this is where hull speed maxes out. I remember reaching about the same speed with my AEII under full sail.

We also need to remember that GPS speed is reading speed travelled over the earth, not necessarily the speed through the water. When I'm bucking a 2 knot current and the GPS is reading 3 knots... I'm actually traveling closer to 5 knots. In a lake this isn't going to be a big difference.

Frank, you don't have your second BSD sail yet... but would either of you consider putting the larger sail up front? Have you tried it Roberto?

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

robonaboat
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by robonaboat »

MY 36HP sail boom wont clear the centre mounted mast if it's on the fore mast, which is why I'd like a 32, which will. But I'd like you to get one first and try it, and tell me how it performs. Please? And I was disappointed with my speed figures in big winds and waves{3 to 5 ft} But I did have too much sail, and pointing too high, trying to counter the current,{tidal current and wind both from the same side, about 90 degrees] and to meet the bigger waves more head on. So a bit of zigzag course. The boat was going up and down a lot and getting slapped by wave tops. The boats been noticeably faster in less windy but much calmer water, only no GPS for figures then. In the vids you appear to have perfect conditions. Your wind and boat speed figures make sense to me now I understand what were average and peak speeds. Dlee correctly reminds us that there are extra factors to take into account with boat speed. My 3.6 knt was the average over several hours, including stopping with head to wind a few times for necessary functions with the boat bouncing around less. I thought it was time to find out what those conditions were like. At this early stage the boat is capable of more than I am. But we can learn. Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

robonaboat
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by robonaboat »

Frank, the differences between our boats must have some effect on performance. Maybe more than I first thought. You have the LH stretch, 5 inches longer than mine. Longer boats can go faster, everything else being even. And the kayaksailor plus genoa is 1.6 + 0.4 sqm = 2.0sqm = 21.5sqft, which is 3sqft more than my BSD18' foresail. Again not much, but it includes a genoa, which we are reliably told enables us to point higher. In addition we are told a headsail, like the genoa, makes changing tack easier than in a cat rigged boat like my BSD schooner rig. Have you been able to change to the other tack without resort to using a few strokes with the paddle to get around? I can rarely get through the eye of the wind without paddle use and have almost given up trying. Maybe you've either stumbled on the best rigging solution for your boat or are smarter than any of us? I've wanted a headsail for better upwind performance but rejected it as impractical to put all that extra rigging on a mast that isn't designed for it. What will be better? A 32BSD in front of the 36? It gives more sail/power in light winds and may work better downwind. OR, the KS with genoa in front, which seems to give better performance upwind? For me sailing solo from the rear seat I have to get around the centre mounted mast to get forward enough to reef the foresail, or strike it. Fortunately possible because of the outrigger stability and I'm skinny. Yes it's a little awkward. If I had the KS up forward instead, could I run all the lines back to the rear seat, obviating the need to go forward at all? What do you reckon Frank? Can we work out whats going to work best for each of us before we spend the money? Or do we splurge and have a different rig for different conditions? Sorry for talking too much and asking many questions. Ideas from others welcome please. Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

robonaboat
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by robonaboat »

And Frank, just looking at your photobucket picture, your KS sails have lower CE than my 18'BSD foresail, reducing heeling, therefore reducing ama drag and your KS leeboards are giving you more lateral resistance than only the BSD leeboard even though it gives back a little more drag. Do you have the desirable slight weather helm with that rig and the KS leeboards down, together with the BSD leeboard angled back as shown? Again, all together it may enable higher pointing than my rig. My girlfriend would ask me why I had to analyse everything. You can probably understand why she asked. Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

FrankP

Re: 2nd sail

Post by FrankP »

Roberto & Dennis I am ordering a BSD 24 today from David to match my 36. I will be selling the KS if you know anybody that wants a 1 yr old KS on a Klepper America mount. That said, I will tell you what David told me. The 32 may be to big when you have a 36 and you may be doing a lot of reefing the 32 down to 24 anyway. I can report that with the 36 and the KS/Genoa I was slightly submerging the leeward ama when we were sailing at our top speeds. I do believe Dennis is right about the current and waves. We only sail on the many larger inland lakes around here so that is not a problem where we sail. No salt either! Once in a while we get choppy water but rarely over 2 ft. On Lake Michigan & Lake Superior that is a different story.

The last 3 times out with the 36 BSD we did not use the KS leeboards as I thought they would create more drag & the BSD leeboard is enough. What a difference it makes over the KS leeboards. WOW! Did I say the leeboards are made of Mahogany by Long Haul and they are beautiful.

As for pointing close to the wind, I'm not sure but it seems we could point pretty high with the KS/Genoa up front and now with the 36 BSD it is still good. I have no idea what will happen with the 24 BSD instead of the KS. Tacking is somewhat less pretty and no we have not mastered it but if my wife can let the Genoa come around the KS for some backwinding we can sometimes make it through irons but often we don't have enough boat speed to get through. Often a few paddle strokes will do it. Someone with much more time sailing knowledge than I here said it's mostly because we are in kayaks modified to sail and a sailboat is designed to sail. That may have been you Dennis.

At 17.5 ft it takes a lot to turn a MK2. The other day on our first time out we were going on a close haul and a sponge blew of my deck. I came about quickly and we chased it down. They cost $11 so even though it was more fun seeing if we could do it we did find it. It could be a fun game on the water.

When I get the 24 BSD I will report my impressions then. I also wanted the 32 up front but if it would be reefed most of the time what's the point? The KS will not work in the rear position because of the way it is built. I will tell anybody it is a very ingenious sail and it works very well. David from Kuvia told me his concept was not to have a sail that needed an outrigger. I say give me more sail & speed and I'll take the outriggers thank you very much.

robonaboat
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by robonaboat »

Thanks for that info Frank. It fills in a few of the gaps in my knowledge Your decision, and the reasons for it are very sensible and I agree completely,...when I have my sensible hat on. David Vs reasoning is true and can also be reversed. i.e. If you're going out with the 32 foresail reefed to 24 you will be shaking out the reef every time there are light winds. OR If you have the 24 foresail you will be wishing you had bought the 32 instead, so you could just shake out the reef every time there are light winds. But it depends so much on our individual conditions, uses and our priorities and goals, the right rig choice could be different for each of us. It's stating the obvious I know. Thanks so much to Frank and Dennis for sharing your experience, and I look forward to Franks comparison of the BSD24 with the KS as foresail. Roberto.
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

DLee
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by DLee »

Roberto, some very interesting thoughts there on the KS being up front and possibly improving sailing into the wind. I don't think I would have thought of that. It's also surprising that the KS has more sail than your BSD 18. Fun with math!

I never sailed my KS without the genoa, or jib, and can't say that the sail impresses me that much. The last few times that I've been out I've halfway considered taking it off for a sail or two to compare. Then, as I'm thinking this it's time to come about and the jib comes to life.

I don't reset the jib until the turn has been completed. As the bow turns up into the wind while coming about the main flips to the opposite side or just falls straight back, but the jib remaining on the original side back fills and pushes the bow down wind completing the turn. I'm sure you guys do this as well. It just works so well that I can't consider sailing without it. Especially when half the come-abouts are borderline at best.

This makes me think that adding a jib to the BSD rigs might not be such a bad idea. I'm sure Mark still puts the mast stays on the hulls and connecting stays to the mast should be no problem at all, especially if you just do it with line. I have my Klepper jib set up so that I can deploy and strike it from the cockpit while under sail - it's a simple continuous loop arrangement and I can simply tuck the sail under the cockpit peak without disconnecting it from the lines so it's ready to pull back up when the wind dies down.

Thinking about this makes me wonder about the actual efficiency of the twin mast BSD setup? It almost seems like the bigger BSD in front with a jib would be more efficient than BSD's typical two masted rig. It could be quite a jib as well with the height of that mast.

Roberto, sailing solo you could try this fairly easily if you could find a Klepper jib to rig up. The height wouldn't match that well but it would be very interesting to try, and easier to control than operating a KS from the rear seat.

Taking this one step further you could put your BSD 18 in the stern behind your seat as a mizzen. Forgive me for thinking out loud... but I think this would be AWESOME!

In terms of which sail to put up front in the standard BSD approach. I would probably put the biggest sail that would clear the rear mast. I don't know how the sails looked reefed... if it's aesthetically unpleasing that could be a factor to go smaller. But if that's not a factor I like the idea of having the biggest bang for the buck in light winds.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

DLee
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by DLee »

Roberto brings up another point that I have considered time and again with both of my sail rigs. They both seem to become inefficient in strong winds and seas. I can't speak quite as strongly against the Klepper rig because I can't really remember having it out in serious conditions with all sails flying. It becomes a handful rather quickly. On the other hand, I've had the KS out on numerous occasions in white caps and howling winds and I don't make any headway at all. My own uneducated theory at this point is that our displacement hulls simply become huge wind obstructions on the water that get pushed down by wind and sea. Think about it. A planing boat will simply get on top of the waves and scream across the white caps in any direction it wants to go. It has a flat bottom and is designed to do this. A displacement sail boat has a deep hull and slices forward into the wind with it's keel. We have a flat bottom that cannot get on top of the waves to go forward but it sure can slide downwind nicely! Sure, we have lee boards but even the beautiful BSD leeboard isn't that big when you think of all the surface area above the water line that is non-aerodynamic and wanting to be pushed backwards by the wind.

Even trying to sail perpendicular to strong wind was impossible for me on one very windy day on Lake Champlain. Nose pointed slightly into the wind trying to simply go straight across, literally 90º to the wind... couldn't do it. I either got pushed downwind or got my nose to far upwind and simply stalled until I fell off again.

I think there is a fine line in getting these boats to sail into a strong wind. A very efficient sail, just the right angle, and properly sized lee boards are probably the keys. The KS doesn't have the lee boards for our boats in this type of weather. I wonder if doubling up the BSD lee boards would improve your windward sailing in adverse conditions Roberto?
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

DLee
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by DLee »

I sailed yesterday after the Memorial Day parade and did learn a couple things. My 8mm plywood lee board stinks even though I like the way it looks, and the GoPro makes everything look faster on the water.

I have one funny segment (I'll try and post it here one of these days) where it looks like I'm moving at maybe a little more than walking pace, probably a couple of knots, definitely moving along... when suddenly a blob of lake moss appears along the side of my boat and I'm not moving at all! That was an eye opener! I think I laughed out loud. So the real deal with GoPro and speed is seeing the white ripples blazing by - like in Frank's videos.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: 2nd sail

Post by FrankP »

On the day of the video in this thread, (last Wednesday), we launched and the wind & chop was coming in pretty close to where we needed to sail toward. I turned us to starboard so we could use the wind. Port was not an option yet. It was very choppy. Many 2 ft waves. We were still having difficulty getting much speed. I wondered why we were not moving very well at that point. My wife was getting wet and crabby. I remember saying "Sailing is a wet sport". When I could I tacked to port and we had better performance. Why, I'm not sure because we had no further problems with sailing into the wind the rest of the time on the water. I didn't take any video at the beginning because it was shortly after paddling out from the ramp and only our 2nd time with the 36 Sport. A case of nerves. The last thing I wanted was a distraction that ended up making us swimmers in the cold water.

My experience so far is we have very good luck sailing into the wind and we have reached our best speeds on close hauls. Even when we had the KS rig by itself we made good progress at all points of sail toward the wind. However, tacking with the KS only was a bit of a challenge sometimes because of the smaller leeboards. With the BSD leeboard we have not seen the same problem with sliding away from the wind. Kuvia really should bite the bullet and make bigger leeboards as an option.

robonaboat
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by robonaboat »

Dennis and Frank, I've always intended to experiment with different rigs over time, so Mark kindly put in a mizzen step and collar for me behind the rear seat. And there is provision for secure mounting of shrouds for a mast at the front of cockpit. I agree with Dennis that a likely improvement in performance is the 18' as mizzen, and the 36' on mast at front of cockpit, with shrouds and forestay with jib. There is enough space left at the back seat to sit out without getting hit by the main boom as it comes across. With that much sail it's mostly going to be necessary to sit out even with outriggers. Then there's stopping sliding downwind on our flat bottoms in boisterous conditions. Ok, KS leeboards to small. BSD much better of course but still not enough in challenging conditions trying to get upwind or sometimes even across. Dennis and I have experienced that. I like the 2 BSD leeboard idea. Where should the second BSD leeboard go? On the same thwart tube, opposite side or a second tube, and where is/are the tube/s. And there are various implications, advantages/ disadvantages with each choice. For now I'm trying to get the best set up with the schooner rig for solo cruising, plus sleeping aboard, but I'm planning for the future when I hope to be a better sailor and able to handle a bigger rig. But what do you think about our speculation so far? Please think out loud! Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

DLee
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Re: 2nd sail

Post by DLee »

Roberto, you think the way I do! You have no idea how much time I spend thinking about making a simple, safe canopy to cover the AEII cockpit so I can sleep and or just relax in the thing in rain or sun. Not that a canopy is needed to sleep in the boat, or relax... I just like the idea. I made a 'sailing board' a while back that will double as the perfect sleeping platform one of these days. Can't wait to try that out.

Sounds like Mark really hooked you up with the rigging. I'm impressed. I would try the ketch rig before I got to committed to the schooner arrangement. But, that's just me a thinkin.' If I set up the ketch I would probably put the two BSD lee boards on either side of the boat and the cross tube right under the COE of the main/jib combo. That's the way I rig my Klepper S2/4 sail and I really like the balance. But, due consideration should be given to the mizzen. Them might move the arrangement back a bit... but I wouldn't be surprised if it works better forward - especially since you seem to like sitting in the back. Obviously the easiest thing to do would be to try them out where they are set right now. That might be a good spot for just main and mizzen, sans jib. The nice thing about the BSD boards is that you can easily adjust them - which will be really nice once you find the sweet spots.

I've attended the Wooden Canoe Heritage Assoc.'s annual event for the past couple of years and a lot of these guys sail without a rudder using the lee board alone for steering. So I imagine that a properly placed lee board on the right day, with ample open water and the perfect wind, could set you sailing hands free with that fine rig of yours for quite a nice while. Perhaps time enough for a picnic even.

How do you control the two sails the way they are set up now? Control board?

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

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