First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

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FrankP

First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by FrankP »

We were on a run downwind with what the weather apps said 12+ MPH SSE wind. The water was very choppy. You could really tell the difference between the Kayaksailor up front and the BSD 24. My wife even loved the BSD a lot more than the KS. I'm glad because it was her idea to get the matching sail.

We reefed both sails once at the ramp. Great time but we had to cut it a little short because dark clouds were coming in. The lake is over 2 miles long and that was going to be into the wind. We still had 3 hours on the water. :D


DLee
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by DLee »

That's great news Frank. Boy you got that together pretty quick didn't you?

Where you able to do any sailing into the wind? How was the outrigger comfort level with the additional sail?

So you're pushing 60 sq. feet of sail now?

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by FrankP »

A close haul with a few more tacks left to get back to the boat ramp. We are still learning how to get through the wind without paddling. We did it a few times today. Help me out. Here's what we did: First I told Cheri we were ready to tack. Next I moved the rudder hard over and pulled in my sail. The foresail was left out and as we crossed the wind it was pulled in and slowly but surely the sails would fill and off we went. It never has been pretty but I figure we sail kayaks so I guess we do with what we have. What tips can you give me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBP4zcE ... e=youtu.be

DLee
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by DLee »

Great videos Frank. I was hoping to see you come about in that second one. Seems like you guys are doing really well and making excellent speed. Did you get any speed readings on the GPS?

As far as coming about I'm not sure I have anything to offer without seeing what happens with the double sail rig... even then I'm not sure I'll have much to offer, ha.

I don't usually pull in the main until I've come about and often don't readjust it at all - hoping I'll be on a reciprocal course going the other way which would have the same set. I guess if you pull the main in as you come about you are maximizing the sail's efficiency... maybe I should try that more often. I tend to rely on the jib/genoa to help bring me around.

I do pull in the main when I jibe (coming about downwind) so the boom doesn't go swinging crazy across the boat.

One thing that crosses my mind is that leaning in toward the inside of the turn might help keep that outside ama from digging in too much and slowing the turn. If you can get the inside ama down in the water it might even act as a bit of a pivot point. I seems like you have plenty of speed to come about fairly easily... I would probably take advantage of that by timing my turns occasionally with maximum speed rather than the best point of transition on your course.

Again, it seems like you guys are doing really great... I'm a little envious truth be told.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by FrankP »

I had the phone with the speedometer running but it was so bright I had trouble seeing it and I really had my hands full with the sails & speed combined with the ama that was not full enough. I can say our troubles with sailing downwind are over. My wife loves the new BSD sail much better than the KS sail. We highly recommend them.


ChrisO

Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by ChrisO »

Frank,

Great show! Any more sail and you will need bigger ama's... No, I did not suggest you try a spinnaker :shock: .

The only suggestion I can offer with tacking -from my sailing days- is to crack off a bit before tacking for more speed. Then initiate the tack by sheeting the back in, then move the rudder. The idea is to build up momentum to get you through the tack, while preventing the rudder from stalling.
I think Dennis' suggestion of unloading the outside ama is an excellent one.

Yes indeed, you have way too much fun!

Chris

robonaboat
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by robonaboat »

Yep I think the Dennis ama pivot idea worth a try. Sounds logical. And the Chris idea is what I've heard. Unfortunately I rarely manage to execute a tack change without paddle, or stalling, then doing a reverse turn (kind of like a 3 point turn). And I feel like I'm just not fluent enough when I point away from the wind a bit more to pick up speed, then pulling in the main sheet smoothly, whilst letting out the foresheet, and just the right amount of rudder but not too soon. The only other things I've read about that help are more weight up front to keep the bow down (the baggage I put up there is still not as much weight as a crew.) and something I've only tried once i.e. when the main sheet is fully in grab the boom in your hand and start pushing it across to the other side so the wind keeps levering the stern around. And it has just occurred to me that with crew up front will it help if she grabs the foreboom and pushes it out the other way at the same time, or at the right moment, levering the bow over the other way? Timing is probably important. I don't have crew but I'll have a go at the other things next time, and practice, practice, practice, then give up if it doesn't work. There may be limits. Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

FrankP

Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by FrankP »

Dennis & Roberto this video is one that I took Sunday along with the others. It is of a paddle free tack from downwind to 180 degrees upwind. Roberto I did exactly what you did with my hand on the wingbone. It was slooooow but it worked and we were off the other way hoping to beat the rain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwGqBKTBXrc

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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by robonaboat »

That's it Frank, but your crew was pushing her wingbone the same direction as you. Next time ask her to push it the other direction to you and see what happens. Think about it. You want the wind to push/pivot the stern one way with the aft sail, but you want it to push/pivot the bow the other way with the foresail. It makes sense to do it this way, but I've not read of it being done or tried it myself. I can't try it because I have no crew for a while, and I've only just thought of it. You can be the test pilot. Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

DLee
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by DLee »

Something crossed my mind the other night while I was reading and thinking about the issues we have with coming about in our lumbering rubber tubes... ha.

Why don't we jibe more often? This should be a new thread called 'Aint no Jibe.'

But the other day when I was out struggling with my KS in gusting winds, weeds and a losing a paddle - which turned out to be the funnest part of the sail;
I did a couple jibes. It was plainly obvious after I built up as much speed that I could and started my turn that I was just not going to make it. I have gotten to the point where I try my turns early because for whatever reason I am determined not to use the paddle unless in trouble. Usually in this situation I fall off and try to come about again once I build some new speed. But twice when the lake was running out of water I decided to jibe.

In our boats this can be a truly nice dance of controlling the main and turning the boat in one smooth and clean sweep. There's almost never a problem getting around in a jibe, it generally goes quite quickly and frankly this seems to be one of the most efficient moves I make in my T9 at least - I lose very little ground and can get right back into the wind cruising forward.

As I think about it now; I think that if we were all racing and came to a turning point where the majority of us tried to simply come about and continue the next leg, the one guy that does the jibe would probably end up well in the lead by simply turning the boat around and taking off while the rest of us flounder and flip our rudders back and forth trying to get our noses turned around.

I don't know. We're not big boats that need to worry about breaking booms and knocking folks overboard. Does anyone other than us even notice? Maybe it's not cool... but it works. Don't get me wrong, I like coming about. It is cool, and it feels good when it happens the way it should. But sometimes... c'mon already...

Any thoughts?

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

FrankP

Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by FrankP »

Now that you mention it Dennis, I guess I always thought you had to come about into the wind for safety sake. I have never tried to come about by jibing. What happened when you did the jibe? Did you eventually have to tack against the wind anyway. Depending on your answer I will try this Saturday.

DLee
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by DLee »

No it's super simple Frank, you simply turn your bow downwind and make the turn. Since you're turning downwind there is little to slow you down. As soon as the bow starts coming around the sail catches wind and you start taking off again. Hopefully settling on a tack similar to the one you had before.

Here's the GOTCHA. When we normally come about the sail finds itself pointed directly into the wind and it dies as the wind blows past it's pivot point the mast. Which is why we all get stuck at that point - we don't have enough speed to carry us around because there isn't any wind in the sail. When you jibe, the wind hits the sail from behind and if you are not prepared, the main sail can make a violent change from one side of the boat to the other, because there will be a lot of wind still in the sail and the pivot point is now behind the sail not in front of it. So as you make your turn, the full sail wants to swing from one side of the boat to the other.

It's just like when you are running downwind and the wind shifts enough to blow the sail over to the other side of the boat. Not necessarily pleasant if you aren't expecting it.

But, if you are expecting it, because you're turning the boat around, you can steadily take in the slack on the sail/main sheet as it comes back towards the center of the boat. Once the wind catches for the opposite set you gently let the sail back out. Meanwhile the boat has turned and you're headed back in the opposite direction.

It's kind of like taking a rambunctious dog for a walk. When something intriguing approaches you tighten up the leash so the dog doesn't get itself into trouble, once the moment is past you let it back out again. There is that moment of tension though.

On a large sailing boat masts can be broken and all sorts of havoc wreaked in an unexpected or uncontrolled jibe. But in our boats... I really don't think much can happen unless you were in a strong wind and let the sail slam from one side to the other. It's definitely something you should know and practice occasionally because you will find yourself in a jibe situation at some point.

If you are battling your way forward into the wind trying to reach a destination, jibing will certainly lose a little ground as you turn. But you'll probably be sailing again quicker than we usually do with our slow motion come a bouts.

It's not a big deal though really. Try it out in a light wind to get the hang of it. I actually kinda like jibing because you have to do something while you come around - rather than just sitting there waiting for the sail to fill up again. This is definitely something to do a comparison on.

Frank, since you seem to be our man on the water... go for it. Let us know what you discover. Perhaps Roberto can give it a shot as well if he gets out there this week.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

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gbellware
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by gbellware »

Solid description Dennis. Frank, you have the "luxury" of a mate to help with the sails, so it makes sense to have good communications. If you sail wing on wing and expect to jibe to same then it will take some real coordination. On a tack the helmsman general uses two commands: "Ready About" to declare the intent to tack and "Hard Alee" to signal rudder input to come into the wind. On a jibe which, as Dennis points out, can be dangerous because of the speed and snap of the boom as it comes across the wind, communication is even more critical. The helmsman generally uses three commands: "Prepare to Jibe", to which the mate responds "OK" if he/she is ready, then "Bearing Away" as you sheet the main and steer so that the stern comes into the wind (usually the jib is also sheeted but not as quickly or tightly as the main), then "Jibe Ho!" just before your stern comes through the wind. At that point the mate should haul the jib through the wind and regain your wing on wing.

When all this is done right it is really satisfying. Do it wrong and the forces can be scary and even dangerous. One of the most important points in Dennis' message is to keep the main sheet tight through the maneuver. That will prevent it from snapping too hard when your stern crosses the wind.

This discussion is driving me NUTS as my wife and I are in Florida for a long weekend. I have a kayak here but no sail. And the wind is up. Rats.

g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Kleppers, A1 Expedition and carbon Quattro
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