First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

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FrankP

Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by FrankP »

Thanks guys. I will try it this weekend both ways ans see what works best. The video (the last one I posted) was of us sailing with the wind and then I turned 180 degrees back into the wind. So is that a tack if I turn into the wind & a jibe if I turn the other way. I can see why it is more effective to turn away from the wind. Fun things to try.

robonaboat
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by robonaboat »

I arrived back yesterday from two days sailing on Moreton Bay to the pleasant discovery that the discussion goes on. I agree with everything you've all written. I was practicing tacking in light winds (5-10knt) up the narrow confines of a tidal creek with frequent turns through the eye of the wind just before the shallows near the bank. It to sharpen up the skills. Just to remind everyone, I was solo in the rear seat, using the LH MkII with BSD outriggers and 36' + 18' schooner rig. So I started doing a proper test of the coming about methods we discussed. These are, pointing away enough to pick up speed, then initiating turn with the rudder, while letting go of the foresail sheet, then bringing in the mainsail sheet, then grabbing the mainsail boom/wingbone and pushing it into the wind. And I pushed that boom over more than I have done before, and in those light wins on the day it worked, yes a little slow, but fine. It failed twice. Once when the wind went suddenly very light and once when the leeboard stuck in the mud. Then in addition to the above, I added leaning forward to grab the foresail sheet just below the clew/end of foresail boom and pulling it across in the other direction from the mainsail. I couldn't stretch to move it very far over but it seemed to make the turn go a little faster. It was still easier than resorting to the paddle to assist, which is mainly what I had been doing previous to then. Yes Dennis and Greg are right, with such small rigs gybing is easy and not to dangerous as they describe. I do deliberately gybe sometimes. On the creek yesterday I once unintentionally turned the wrong way, but I continued with a controlled gybe turn and was pleasantly surprised I hadn't lost too much ground in comparison with what I'd been doing. Being very close to shore it's easier to perceive the difference in ground gained or lost. I don't think I'll need to use the paddle assist turn again unless it's very light wind. And I suppose even then I could gybe. But the testing goes on. Monday I hope to go out in predicted 20-30 knt winds, 1.5-2m seas. I'll be down to one centre mounted sail only, maybe the 18', reefed to 15' if necessary, and it will all be different. Different conditions, or change one thing on the boat and you can get different results. Roberto.
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

robonaboat
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by robonaboat »

And Frank, yes that was a gybe you did in your last video. We use mostly English spelling here in Australia, so gybe = gibe. On another point your lake sailing seems generally to produce smaller seas for the same wind strength than here on Moreton Bay. Photos and videos can be deceiving as they rather flatten out the view but I don't see the waves washing over foredeck to the extent I would expect for that wind and with crew forward. I could be wrong though. What is your lake depth and dimensions where you sail? Moreton bay over here is about half the length and the same width as your green bay of lake Michigan and mostly sheltered by narrow islands from the ocean. But it's very shallow and the waves kick up steeply in any wind. I saw my first turtle out there on Thursday, munching on the sea grass in the shallows. And to Dennis, who may be interested, I slept in my boat overnight, at anchor in a creek estuary, for the first time, but I haven't an effective tent/canopy yet. I was just in my bivy bag, with feet in the stern and head next to the centre mast. I used the things I happened to have aboard to roughly level the surface and laid a closed cell mat on top. It thankfully didn't rain, the mosquitoes didn't come that far offshore, and I was bloody tired and slept well. It also saved the time and effort of going ashore to camp as I usually do. But the system needs work. Roberto.
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

FrankP

Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by FrankP »

The lake in he video is 2.25 Miles long and over a mile wide in the wide area. Not big but big enough. This Sunday we are going to a Small Boat Rendezvous in Madison, WI the lake is much bigger at 5.5 Miles by 3.8 miles wide. Other than lake Superior 3 times and once on Lake Michigan it will be the largest lake we have sailed on.

We will try several things out and these tips have been very instructive. I was trying to think how uncomfortable sleeping in our stretch MK2 would be. We have a yellow Velcro Spraycover so I think that would make it more difficult to sleep. Maybe you could even lay on top of the spraycover with your head in front of rib #6 and feet around the mast. The water would have to be very calm though.

Good sailing!

robonaboat
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by robonaboat »

Thanks Frank. Beautiful little lakes you have there. I hadn't thought of sleeping on top of the spray cover. I also have the velcro version. Isn't the thwart tube in the way? Ah, but if you could be bothered dismantling outriggers and centre mast nothings in the way. But yes, then your centre of gravity is higher and no outrigger stability. Could be OK, as you said, in calm water. Happy sailing Sunday at Madison . I'm sailing again Monday and Tuesday, strong wind warning too, reaching 30 knts in the afternoon. so going with 18' sail only, and not going out into the middle of the bay where it's worse. With 18sqft only I'm not tempted to over canvas and break something and I can reef to 15'. I'll sleep in boat again if I can find somewhere calm to anchor. I'll let you know if I learn anything. Roberto.
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

DLee
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by DLee »

Roberto, sounds like you had a good time sailing and I am totally impressed that you slept in the boat! Dude that is close to hero status in my book!

Here in the states it's required for motorized boats to carry a throwable PFD. It's called a type IV and is for all intensive purposes a seat cushion with two hand straps on it. I always keep one in my boats when I go out for a variety of reasons, but one of the best is that it fits nicely between the ribs in the boats and is a great cushion. A couple of these won't completely fill the void in the bottom of your boat but they might help smooth it out a bit.

In other terms of safety, I would probably not sleep inside of a sleeping bag in the boat. I cannot imagine trying to get out of a sleeping bag should you somehow get knocked out of the boat in the middle of the night. An unlikely scenario I know... but I'd feel more comfortable if you just had a blanket type arrangement over you.

Also I don't think sleeping on top of the coaming is such a great idea either I'm sorry to say. As you point out the balance is all wrong and trying this without the outriggers is disaster in the making. I can't imaging that all your weight, even if you're a tiny guy, can be good for the coaming on the boat. I'd check with Mark on that. If Mark says it's OK I wonder if a hammock type sling that hangs just above the ribs might be a possibility. But really, consider making a sailing deck for continued solo sailing and general comfort for moving about the boat. I have actually stood in my boat while sailing a couple of times on my board... it's a knee knocking experience for sure, but it was by far the easiest way to counter the lean of the boat. If you got comfortable doing this I bet you could get the point where you could sail those BSDs without the outriggers. For fun of course... no expedition loads here please. Ha.

I tried it the other day with the KS and could not get beyond a bent knee stance. It's really a tight muscle full body tension kind of moment. You really need to be in a situation where the boat, your dress and water conditions are all prepared for a capsize and then have total fun with it. I'm sure you can stand quite easily in your boat now with the outriggers. Give it a go, counter the lean under a full steam of sail to get that outrigger out of the water, you'll see what I mean. Just have line in hand or tied to your PFD that is connected to the boat in case you go over.

Have a great time. Looking forward to the sailing report!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-TNI19FkOg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqA5xP8JTWU&NR=1

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

robonaboat
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by robonaboat »

The Roberto sail report from Moreton Bay, Australia. Forecast; 20 to 25 knt southerly wind and seas 1-1.5m, both days of sailing.. So I set out with the 18sqft sail only in the centre mast, thinking it would be enough. It wasn't. Mornings it worked up gradually from 5-10 knt wind to 20-25 in the afternoon. Wish I'd brought my second sail. I had 9hrs going directly against the wind,and mostly against the tide as well, (Didn't fancy going against waves kicking up more in a wind against tide situation in the most difficult area.) to make a total of 12 nautical miles in a straight line.. And in the worst part I was tacking backwards and forward but only covering 1 nm in the desired direction for every hour. But with the easier parts it averaged out to 24nm to make good 12nm and avg speed 2.7 knt along the zigzag course. It took 4.5 hrs to return directly, straight line, with the wind the next morning before the strong winds got up. Lessons learned; take more sail with me even if there is a strong wind warning. Both upwind and downwind return would have been faster. And I would have reefed when necessary and probably continued on just one reefed sail when the wind was close to 20 knt and above. And yes I got very wet and was glad I wore a neoprene wetsuit. Even at 20-25 knt wind I think more than 18sqft sail would be safe. At least 24sqft no worries. I did sleep, at anchor, in a creek estuary, in the boat again that one night before return. Over 10 hrs sleep and it wasn't too much. Saw dolphins playing on the more relaxing sail back downwind and arrived back at the car at noon. In relation to sleeping on the spray cover, I don't see it as practical or as safe but it's worth keeping in mind. I do sleep in a bivy bag and zip up the sleeping bag when cold so I'm dead if run down by another boat. I have a riding light on all night, and don't anchor in the navigation channel. I feel safe but nothings completely safe. I'm really training to be able to eventually do expeditions out of the bay and along the coast so I'm developing systems I can work with the spraycover always on. A sailing deck wouldn't work with that. Nor standing I think, though kneeling and leaning out works in calmer conditions.To reef or strike the foresail I actually leave the rear seat and climb forward to sit on top of the spraycover to do foresail work. There's luggage and a strong inflated air bag on top of that to push the spraycover up convex above the forward seating. It stops water pooling on the spraycover and supports my weight when I sit on it. I weigh 10 stone and am fairly athletic. For that move I first pivot the leeboard forward, tighten the main sheet and let the foresail sheet go. The boat faces upwind and goes slowly backward. I could go on but it's already a long post. Keep the suggestions coming. Roberto
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Incept K40S

DLee
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by DLee »

Roberto, very interesting. Dude you rock for camping in the boat. That is awesome. Are you hitting land at all? Or are you eating all your meals and such in the boat... very cool. That's the kind of thing I'd like to be able to do as well. There are a couple long passage trips I dream about and getting a few hours shut eye on the open water would be one of the requirements. Don't know if that's really doable... ? But it's fun to think about.

If my memory of Rules of the Road, International rules are about the same for small craft under manual power. So at anchor the appropriate light would be one all-around white light with a visibility of probably 1-2 miles. I can check that if you like. The running lights, the red and green and white light, should not be on if you are anchored. Running lights mean you are underway and if someone sees them they might be anticipating you to move. Although you don't necessarily have to. Anyway, using the all-around white light will let informed boaters know that you are anchored. Actually, boats our size don't even need the typical running lights. The all around white light suffices for that as well. I'll double check all this though. I'm curious because I think there might be a few differences in small boats between International and US INLAND rules.

I think it's kind of fascinating that you made the same speed going both directions. What was you max speed for the day? With that kind of wind blowing did you ever just take off and get a great leg in? Traveling 24NM to make 12NM on the chart is a not really a great record is it? What do you think the major problems were and better yet, what do you think the better ratio might have been to make that 12NM distance... knowing you were going to tack? Maybe 24 isn't bad? I'd have to lay it out on a chart to really see it but it seems like a lot... love to hear your thoughts on this.

You must be getting pretty comfortable with the boat and rig. What changes will you be making before the next journey? Or in other words, any lessons learned? Looking forward to hearing more.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

DLee
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by DLee »

So the all around white light is appropriate for a boat our size at anchor;

Rule 30, (b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.

Then underway:

Rule 25 - Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars

a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.

Rule 25(d)(ii) A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

robonaboat
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by robonaboat »

I forgot to mention that a few weeks ago I did some useful changes. Added 2 extra cam cleats to the thwart tube in front of me for the sheets of the 2 sails. And tied 2 small string bags to the thwart next to the cleats for the excess length of the sheets. The first night I ever slept aboard, I came ashore first long enough to eat, and fill a vacuum flask, and again in the morning to crap. This time I didn't go ashore before sleeping, so ate cold food in the boat and had some warm tea left over in the flask from the morning. But I did go ashore for 10 minutes in the morning to crap in the mangroves before pushing off. Of course to crap on board is possible and I'll have to do it sometime but if it's easier to do it ashore I will. I am also thinking about catching some sleep aboard while on long passages I have in mind for the future. I can and have just knocked the steering pedals down and slid down to a horizontal position, with the centre mast between my thighs. It's just comfortable enough for me to sleep like that in good conditions, and with the boat running on self steering. But then is the real danger of getting run down. It may be less dangerous though than trying to go on in a sleep deprived state, with the resulting reduced cognitive skills and slower reflexes. Or one may be tempted to get ashore to sleep where it isn't safe to make a landing. The night light rules are the same here as you describe. I also have the green and red nav lights for when the time comes or I'm just caught out after dark. It's going to happen. So far I been trying to do things with the boat that seem the most difficult, and just accepting the results and noting them, so I have an idea of the possible limits of the boat, rig and myself. Later I can try to push those limits out a bit by whatever means. I hadn't thought much about what speeds might be possible in ideal conditions. I do know I once averaged above 5 knts over 6 hrs last year, first sailing upwind all on one tack against mostly light winds and calm seas, then back again on a broad reach with rapidly strengthening wind. So it it was probably about 4knts upwind and 6knts downwind. But the other day on my return sail after sleeping a night aboard, I set off early in almost no wind, which only slowly picked up. Only after I arrived back at the start did the wind rapidly increase to its predicted 20-25 knts for the day. I didn't have any good leg going upwind, and I don't have any answers to your questions yet. It may take some time to learn. We have been talking about how to improve sailing performance. Extra sail area, with an extra BSD leeboard and an extra pair of BSD outriggers to hold it all up would work. I don't know if I want to go that far but I will consider it. On the other hand if the rig I have gets me where I want to go albeit a bit slower, but with less complication maybe that's enough. Lesson learned the other day was take extra sail even if you think you won't need it because of the forecast strong winds. I'm just loving this sailing. I'm learning so much, and it's real fun. I don't care how long it takes to get better at it. But I wont be sailing again for a couple of months as in about two weeks I'm off on a long cycle tour with some mates and need to start preparations for that. I've rinsed the salt off the boat and gear and its drying now before storing to await my return. I'll avidly follow the forum until I leave of course. Roberto.
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

robonaboat
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by robonaboat »

A couple of afterthoughts. I put a bunjee tiedown on my balance rudder as described in Ralph Diazs book and the BSD website. I can see the rudder does seriously lift at speed without it. And a friend here asked me if paddling directly to the destination straight into the wind would be faster, rather than all that tacking at very narrow angles (yep he was surprised too how slow it worked out). Well perhaps. But I couldn't have maintained paddling into that wind and those seas for very long without getting very tired and sore and my guess is that even with 2 ordinary men paddling we would have given up before we got there. And how good would we be if we had to do the same the next day? But I wasn't out there to test that on the day. Just the sailing was tiring but I arrived at the creek entrance near the end of the day with plenty enough energy left to strike sail and paddle around for a half hour comfortably until I found a spot to anchor. Next morning the wind was so light I did some paddle assist for a while, because I was well rested, so I could easily. And I could have the next day too. Having said all that, I've actually been doing specific regular exercises ashore for better paddling strength and endurance long before I even received my boat last year because I expect to really need the ability to paddle long and hard sometime even if I plan against ever needing to. And I'll continue to sail as my first option even when conditions are against sailing knowing that, on a long voyage especially, I'm going to get plenty of paddling anyway. I could say too that the longer the time spent in the boat the happier I am so speeds not an issue. And this long haul comfort seat really makes it possible to be comfortable for a long time. There's a lot of individual goals, expectations and philosophies to all this and fortunately we can all paddle or sail our own canoes just as we like. How fortunate are we, I'm sure you'll all agree. Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

DLee
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by DLee »

I could say too that the longer the time spent in the boat the happier I am so speeds not an issue.
I think that pretty much says it all right there. I agree.

Great report Roberto. I'm sure I'm not the only one here that, not only, wishes we had a rig like yours to play with but the time to play as well. Really enjoy following your adventures here. Can you remind me which MKII you have? I'm going to have to take a look at the Diaz book on bungeeing the rudder down. Not sure I get how that's done.

Thanks,

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

robonaboat
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Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by robonaboat »

Thank you Dennis. Yes, I should have reminded everyone of my rig so it makes more sense. It's a longhaul mkII quattro, 17'. So, same dimensions as the older Klepper doubles. And the sail rig is BSD outriggers, with BSD centre mounted 36HP batwing sail, and front of cockpit mounted BSD 18' batwing. A LongHaul balance rudder, velcro tuckunder double spraydeck, and I usually sail solo, from the rear seat. All luggage is secured in case of capsize. I should also say I'm not that brave, so since I've been testing in the bigger stuff I've been carrying all the safety gear in addition to wearing a PFD. PLB, VHF handheld, flares, strobe, nav lights. Another potentially safety item I've added is called an anchor trolley. It's just a loop of rope fed through a block on the bow and another on the stern then each end tied off to a steel ring. I carry anchor with 6ft chain plus rope and also a sea anchor/drouge, either of which I can run from the bow or stern, without leaving the cockpit seat, using the anchor trolley. I don't know if you guys use them. Can you visualize how that works? What else? I've attached short webbing straps, with velcro closures, to either end of the wingbon/ booms ,for tying the furled sails to the booms. Once that's done I can pull the halyard and fasten the loose end to the clew end of the boom so it's out of my way above my head, then tighten the sheet and fix it with the extra cam cleats I've screwed to the aka/thwart tube in front of me so the boom doesn't sway. I'm sure there are other useful alterations that can be made. I still haven't made a tent/roof for sleeping in the boat, but I will get there. And I'm still thinking about ways to keep the spray cover from pooling water in my lap. Roberto
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

FrankP

Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by FrankP »

But I couldn't have maintained paddling into that wind and those seas for very long without getting very tired and sore and my guess is that even with 2 ordinary men paddling we would have given up before we got there. And how good would we be if we had to do the same the next day? But I wasn't out there to test that on the day. Just the sailing was tiring but I arrived at the creek entrance near the end of the day with plenty enough energy left to strike sail and paddle around for a half hour comfortably until I found a spot to anchor.
I know what you mean as it sometimes seems with all the tacking we have to do to reach a point into the wind when a sail deprived paddlercan go directly to their destination, you wonder why sail. On the other hand, the other day we were sailing back into pretty stiff wind and the few kayaks out there were struggling against the wind. We sailed there in our different tacks with very little stress or exertion.

We have always had great performance sailing into the wind. Even when we only had the Kayaksailor. Now it's even easier with the 2 BSD sails. There have been a few times when I have said to my wife up front "with all this wind why aren't we moving faster"? I attribute the lack of speed to user error and hope someday I will get better at this. I too share your fascination with sailing kayaks and the real beauty is that we can paddle if so inclined. However, I have been known to answer my wife when asked if she should lower her sail and paddle in light wind, "why spoil a good day of sailing by paddling"? :)

FrankP

Re: First sail with BSD 24 & 36 HP Sport

Post by FrankP »

I still haven't made a tent/roof for sleeping in the boat, but I will get there. And I'm still thinking about ways to keep the spray cover from pooling water in my lap. Roberto
I saw a kayak with a PVC frame that was inserted under the spraycover and rested on the coaming. The convex shape held up the spraycover so water would drain over the side. I am going to try that out and see if it works.

You would think you could rig up a tent using the 2 masts to clamp the top of the tent onto and perhaps use Velcro on the bottom edge to stick to the spraycover to keep out pesky mosquito's and other bugs at night. Perhaps a clamp with a pulley on the mast with a rope from a D ring in the front seat area going up to the pulley then down to another D ring in the back to hold up the tent.

You said you unhook the peddles from rib #4 to lay your legs through. Can you do that while in the water or do you beach then get out to reach the fittings? I think I could not reach them without getting out.

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