Folding Kayaks Forum

Main Sail Rigging Options
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Author:  indylux [ Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Here is my solution for adding a block to the mid point of my boom. I bought a length of metal reinforced rope and lashed the pulley securely to the aluminum pole. It allows a little slide if you push right on the rope, but locks in place if you pull on the block. I think it's a winner.

Author:  DLee [ Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Yeah, both good ideas.

Jarmland, since you are using the carabiner for kinda quick release... you could use a taught line hitch instead so you'd have a little adjustment to play with.


Author:  indylux [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options


I've had the Klepper out twice to test the sails and wanted to report in with my findings.

First Outing: The day was overcast and the wind was about 10mph. My friend and I setup the boat on Lake Union noticing that there were frequent whitecaps on the lake (which isn't all that usual). We set up the boat with the outriggers, the cable board, keel boards and the mast with the jib tucked down on the deck and into the front of the boat. We paddled out and it started raining. We tried hoisting the jib sail and it worked fairly well, but with choppy wind and the rain coming down harder, we decided to head to shore. No sooner had we pulled the frame from the hull, the wind calmed, the sky turned blue and the waves calmed down. I told my friend I had to get back out and try out the main and jib together. He helped me put things back together and out I went. Right away, a gust of wind pushed the main forward and pulled me in between a yacht and a nearby dock. I was able to drop the main and paddle out to open water. That's when things went wrong. The wind started gusting and threatening to tip me over. I tried to lower the sails, but my lines got tangled and I lost control of the boat. The jib got pulled under the boat and I couldn't pull it in. Using the paddle, rudder and what sail control I did have, I kept some control as the wind blew me across the lake. I managed to guide it (not gracefully) into a waterside construction site next to a crane and a pile of driftwood. My friend saw where I got lodged and helped me pull the boat up the bank. No damage done, except to my pride. That night, I looked up the wind speeds online. They had gusted to 25mph during the time I was on the water. Clearly not safe to have been out there. Lesson hopefully learned.


During the next week, I found that my legs were insanely sore. Didn't realize how much I was relying on my leg muscles to stabilize the boat when it was blowing across the lake.

Second Outing: The next weekend, I decided to have another go at it. Winds online were at 8-10mph, no white caps on the water and lots of other sailboats that were out and looked to be under good control. What a difference the right conditions made! The boat handled beautifully. I was able to sail upwind without much trouble and made it the entire length of Lake Union. It took some time (maybe 90 minutes?) but the boat seemed to be under great control. When I turned around and went with the wind, this thing hauled! I have no idea what my speed was, but I made it back to the north end of the lake in what seemed like 10 minutes. At that speed, the outrigger that was in the water did flip once or twice briefly acting as an anchor (not ideal). I also still had issues with the boom wanting to flip forward and out of control. Definitely need to watch out for that.


Author:  indylux [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Things That Worked:
Placing the keel board behind the passenger seat was a good idea. Splayed out the lines well and I could still reach them if I needed to when solo sailing.
The control board right in front of the keel board worked well too. I will need to play around with the placement of the components a bit to avoid lines getting snagged during high winds.
The outrigger being mounted on the control board worked surprisingly well too. The keels could still rotate, I could reach the outriggers and remove them if needed (when launching and landing or paddling longer distances), I could paddle with about 80% of my normal stroke even with the outriggers deployed.
The jib traveled nicely from side to side without snagging. Really added a nice dimension of control.

Things That I Need to Work On:
Not much visibility when the sails are up. I lose about 30% of my view. I found I can lift the boom for a quick look at what's in front of me, but I need to be careful with such an obstructed view. I don't want to add a window to my sail(s) just yet.
The outriggers like to flip if they get submerged and briefly act as a brake rapidly slowing the boat and turning possibly leading to a capsize.
I have no way to pull the jib into the boat when solo sailing. If I lower it, it drops into the water and under the boat. I like the idea of a loop so one side hoists the jib and the other can be used to guide it into the boat if I need to.

Author:  DLee [ Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Congrats! sounds like two successful sailing trips. The first one got the big goof ups out of the way and the second sounds downright fun. Excellent.

Be cautious of how far back you move the lee boards. Their placement has a big effect on having a weather helm or a lee helm. The further back you go the more lee helm you get - allowing the boat to fall off into the wind. On a tippy boat like the AII without the outriggers, or even with the Hobies, this could cause a capsize in a heavy wind. The weather helm turns the nose into the wind and pretty much brings you to a standstill.

I recommend using the upper setting on the Hobies and trying to keep them out of the water by counter leaning the sail. I've never had one flip over that I can remember... but I have completely submerged one of the Hobies and narrowly escaped capsizing... probably the breaking action of the submerged Hobie gave me an extra moment to release the sail.

The jib on the loop works great. I'd love to see how you rigged your control board with the Hobie's mounted on there as well. When I tried this the cross bar kinda hindered the clam shells from doing their jobs efficiently. So grab a snap if you can next time out. Congrats again, sounds excellent!


Author:  indylux [ Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Thanks D,

It took me a day or two to wrap my head around the 'helm' concept but I think I get it now. If the center of effort on the sail is behind the keel, the boat heads upwind and pretty much sits still. If the center of effort is in front of the keel, it turns the bow in the direction of the wind, blows the sails forward, catches the shroud lines and off you go. Sounds like what happened to me the first day. The jib also moves my center of effort forward too, I think, by adding more sail bulk further forward. The second day, I still had the keel boards way back but overcame the tendency to swing windward with the rudder. From what I read online, when you have a lee helm, you can overcome it a bit with the rudder like I did, but you bleed off a ton of your speed by braking with the rudder. I will definitely experiment with moving the keels forward and moving more to a weather helm if possible.

I guess you learn by being out there and seeing what happens.

I'll post more pictures of the control board next time I go out there. The lines behaved nicely through the clam cleats.

Author:  chrstjrn [ Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Your analysis is pretty much correct, as I understand it. One additional element to consider is the drag that is induced, in a boat with an unbalanced rig, by the process of fighting against the tendency of the rig (to say nothing of the sore muscles).

Author:  DLee [ Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Yep, you pretty much got it as Chris confirmed. I think it's generally considered 'safer' to have a weather helm rather than a lee helm. Fewer forces trying to push you over and such you know?

Also, we are generally calling the boards on the Kleppers and other sailing rigs Lee Boards, because they ride on the lee side of the boat keeping the boat from being pushed sideways... too much. The keel is usually a single heavy wing hanging from the center bottom of the boat. Careen in Europe sells these contraptions, but they are pretty complicated and plenty expensive.

Yeah, getting out and doing it is what it's all about. Still pretty cold here but I can't wait to get going - I really want to try out the new hiking seats from Long Haul and their new keel sponson.

Looking forward to seeing some more pics.

For solo sailing my Lee boards have ended up in line with one of the ribs at the front of the AEII cockpit. I think it's the first rib back from the mast hole. They seem to find a nice balance there... especially since I move around the boat a lot and take my jib up and down fairly regular.


Keep the reports coming.


Author:  john allsop [ Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Many years ago D Stiller (and he knew a lot about Kleppers) was the manager of Hans Klepper Klepper Corporation in New York recommended that the Lee Boards are best if located 10 to 15 inches behind the mast, and a weight of 20lb (plus) located in the bow area of an unloaded Klepper helps. Of course the lee boards are out of reach from the rear seat. If you havn,t tried the Lee Boards this close they are worth a try. He also had a guide sheet "sailpointers" which i probably have, must look, I have also had the sails up sitting on the grass seeing what can go wrong and how to reef or pull the jib in from the rear seat and going over and over again untill any problems are cleared up, i have done this with all sets of sails i have for the Klepper, Folbot and Triak. This "playing" on the grass can show if personal changes can be made.

Author:  indylux [ Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Had a good outing (overall) yesterday evening. Sails performed beautifully. I did move the lee-boards as far forward as I could which made handling seem much more responsive. Downside was I couldn't reach them from the back seat so had to have someone on the dock help me lower them into position after I launched.

Here are a couple quick videos if you care to take a look:

I did have a strap break on me (home made so not too worried). More challenging was an eyelet broke off on the bow piece where the dowel hook connects. Anybody know how to fix this easily? It looks riveted in so even if I get a replacement, I'll be having to figure out how to bust out the old rivet.

Author:  indylux [ Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Dennis had asked to see how I mounted my Hobie Sidekick Outriggers to my control board so here is a picture. Clam cleats work without issue in this setup. The little plastic dock cleats are another story but are still fairly functional, just snag a little and should be another centimeter further back to function correctly.

(Yes, white tube socks are required to sail this boat. It's the law.)

Author:  chrstjrn [ Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Ref. your broken hardware: you should be able to get a replacement for that part fairly easily from Klepper or Long Haul.
What are people's thoughts on using a well-sized nut, washer, and nut instead of the whole rigamarole with a hand-driven rivet, for that spot?

Author:  DLee [ Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

I figured out how to do the rivets properly by hand and I'll post a little synopsis with some pictures soon. It's basically about cutting the rivet to the correct length. More on that later though.

My suggestion - Take two washers with the correct size hole diameter for the hook on the stringer and with JB Weld epoxy one or better two washers onto the remaining stub that's still remaining on that clip... if there's room. Nut and bolt would probably work here.

Congrats on the good sail. I have found that aligning the lee board with the first rib in the cockpit is a good spot and you might be able to reach that from the back.


Author:  DLee [ Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

Indy, I saw your video! Awesome.

I'm setting the AII up this week for some sailing!


Author:  indylux [ Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main Sail Rigging Options

DLee wrote:
I figured out how to do the rivets properly by hand and I'll post a little synopsis with some pictures soon. It's basically about cutting the rivet to the correct length. More on that later though.

Hi Dennis: Definitely interested in any info on installing the rivet. I don't have any special tools and it didn't come with instructions.

Update: I dove in and figured it out (thank you YouTube). Basic process: Drilled out the old rivet, removed the broken piece, pushed the new rivet through (one end was rounded off like a bolt, the other was just the aluminum rod), placed the head of the rivet on a block of wood and gently hammered the rod around the edges to start to flatten it, continued hammering straight on to 'mushroom' out the end of the rod. The rivet now looks good and smooth and the piece fits in tight. Now I have a new skill! (Sort of)

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