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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:29 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 810
Location: atlanta, georgia
Ask a Bostonian what is the quickest way to drive to the airport or a Chicagoan what is the best deep dish pizza and you will start lively debate that may result in injury. Same with outriggers, maybe, but I'll take that risk.

I am the happy owner of a cool, as new, circa 1990's A1 Expedition, thanks to the help of D. Lee "the mad kayak tinkerer" on this board. I swapped my Big Kahuna for this single because my old knees were no longer capable of contorting into the Feathercraft's smallish cockpit and the Klepper lets me in without any drama.

I am looking forward to sailing this Klepper with both the Kayaksailer and S2 rigs, but I really do want the safety of outriggers. I have no experience with these and would really appreciate some advice. I sail in almost all conditions, from calm, protected lakes to slow moving river trails (Chattahoochee and Everglades), to open water in the Atlantic under the power of the Trade Winds. I have always felt comfortable in my A2 Quattro without outriggers, but the A1 is a different story. I do not want to swim.

Specs? I don't even know what to ask, except that I will not likely overnight with this rig, I don't need the capability to deploy/stow underway, and I want something that will not plow even under big winds and seas.

Any thoughts would be welcomed.

Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:56 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
Posts: 75
Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Hello "g"
I have a 1965 Klepper Aerius A2, with 2005 Long Haul hull, and a Klepper S4 rig (now called an S2, I believe). I have both a Spring Creek outrigger and a BSD/BOSS/Wilkes outrigger. I went to the BOSS this year because I wanted a very safe rig for my wife and I, who are both now over 65....(and she hates cold water!). We capsized about 5 years ago with the Spring Creek outrigger (which has only about 0.5 cubic feet displacement in each ama, and had only 3' long akas at the time of the capsize, but now has 5' long ones) in gusty winds and heavy waves. The BOSS/Wilkes set up has 2.3 cubic foot amas and 6' long akas, and is much more stable, good to about 30 mph winds/gusts. I bought the BOSS amas, and made my own akas and saddles to mount them (for a total of about $400), but use my original Klepper leeboards which work great. I will send you a link to my Facebook album (see: https://www.facebook.com/john.c.wilkes/ ... 82&type=3#) so you can see my whole boat as it developed over the last 10 years or so. I can also share with you my boat stability calculations with data for outriggers by BSD/BOSS, Spring Creek, Hobie Sidekick, Harmony, Tridarka, Taimen (Russian), Careen (Klepper), etc. and sail rigs of various sizes (including Klepper S4/S2; BSD 24, 36 Sport, and 5 meter; Hobie; custom 32.2 square foot genoa I am making for my Klepper, after lengthening the lower mast of the gunter rig by 12", etc.). It calculates the wind speed, W, at which the leeward ama will be fully submerged (essentially the capsize speed), but does not take into account wave size. It balances the heeling force of the wind with the righting forces from: (a) the Klepper or Long Haul sponsons (2 or 4 oper boat), (b) outriggers, and (c) the crew hiking out to varying degrees. Although, it might not be super accurate (since it assumes certain factors, that are stated, and cannot account for all real world variables), it appears to be quite realistic from my own experience and that of others I have shared it with. Most importantly, it allows you to compare different set-ups, and make intelligent choices when determining what to buy, make, and use in the way of outriggers and sail plans. Let me know if you would like this calculation and spreadsheet. There are a lot of data on it from many different rigs and configurations. I have shared it with a few forum members, but not widely, and do not intend to post it. Some folks do not seem very interested. Perhaps they do not fully understand the calculation and spreadsheet, but if you have somewhat of a technical background, it's quite easy to understand, and I will gladly share it and discuss it with you if you are interested. Cheers! :)
Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


Last edited by jcwlx on Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:41 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1387
Location: South Salem, NY
Congrats on the new boat Greg, she's a real beauty. Looking forward to seeing some pictures of her in action.

Chris did a great job with the stability chart, so definitely take him up on that offer to check it out. Chris, sounds like you've updated it a bit since I last saw it. Did you incorporate the kayaksailor into the spreadsheet? What about the A1?

While Chris crunches numbers I'll tell you what I think... ha. First of all Greg I think this boat is going to be pretty darned stable as is. I imagine that the KS is going to be a smooth and comfortable sail in most conditions with that boat. The S1 and S2 should you get that crazy will be entirely different.

The bottom line is that I don't think you'll be able to paddle with any typical outrigger system mounted in the solo cockpit. I used a canoe paddle in my T9 with the KS and Hobie outrigger. I seem to remember the sail being in the way and I believe the rear mounted aka was getting hit as well when I used my kayak paddle.

Image

That said, the Hobie's are amazingly versatile because the can be adjusted while out on the water. I was able to keep the T9 cruising along for long periods of time with neither ama in the water. But they were there when the need arose. I've submerged one of the Hobies with the S2 but can't remember even coming close to submerging one with the KS.

I didn't have as windy a day when I tried the Harmony sponsons... but they really worked great. Unlike the Hobies these are full time operational usually with one or the other in the water. You can lift them both out while underway (it feels like your pulling and holding your oversized pants up) and there is a slight increase in speed in very light wind conditions. But, you wouldn't need them in very light wind conditions and you can easily deflate and sheath them, in place, while on the water.

Image

Image

I'm guessing the Harmony has about a six inch diameter. If you add these to your A1 you're looking at a 38" beam! That's more than the A2 right? That little kayaksailor aint flipping that without some serious help.

The beauty of the Harmony is that you can deflate them and paddle normally without stress. I don't think you're ever going to need more than these with the Kayaksailor.

Of course the BSD/BOSS is an awesome cruiser with the MK1 as David Valverde demonstrates in many videos, but I don't think you're going to be doing much paddling with that rig on board.

My T9 is laid up for a bit and if I sail the AII over Christmas break I'll take the Hobie's along. If you want to try out the Harmony rig let me know and I'll send it down to you.

But seriously, reef the KS and take her for a test spin. I'll be really surprise if you feel a need for any outriggers in protected waters.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:27 pm 
paddler

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:24 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Dennis, I think I see the clamp bolts (J-Bolts?) for the Hobie Sidekick crossbar behind the rear seat in your photo. Can you confirm?

Looking forward to receiving a Hobie set from FrankP along with a Klepper America mount for a future purchase of the Kayaksailor rig in 2015.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year, y'all from sunny NC.

Buck


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:05 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 810
Location: atlanta, georgia
Thanks for the great information and advice, and the pics are helpful as well. I had not contemplated the intereference factor, and that is a significant concern. I like the idea of the BOSS and Careen, mast mounted, but I would have to figure out a way to angle them forward sharply enough to allow a normal paddle stroke. Is that even a possibility? And yes, Chris, I would love the calculations you have done. I am a out-of-the closet geek, my graduate degree is from the B-school at Penn in Finance, with minor in quantitative methods. I am now in marketing and don't get enough numbers! Bring it!
Dennis, I am so looking forward to trying the Kuvia. And I agree, probably no need for outriggers until I hoist the S-2.

Thanks,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:24 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1387
Location: South Salem, NY
Greg the Careen mast mount outrigger is a great idea. I wonder if you could adapt the BOSS amas to that paddle/crossbar rig? That could be THE system for sailing the Klepper sails on that boat. I'd love to hear the details on cost and whatever else you learn about the Careen.

Buck, here's a shot of how I mount the Hobie on the AII

Image

If you look closely here you can see how the leeboard, Hobie cross tube and control board all get crammed together as tight as possible. The picture above shows the space needed between the leeboard and Hobie cross bars to allow the boards to fit.

Image

Originally I mounted the Hobie cross bar on a board and used the board to connect to the coaming. The idea was to create a control board/cross tube combo but that didn't work out because the 'tube' got in the way of the lines and didn't allow the jam cleats to work properly... You can see here that the tube is still in the way of the jam cleats and the halyards are running below it.

If I reversed this idea though, and mounted the board on top of the cross tube and the leeboard bar... the board would have a four point J-bolt tie down which would be much more secure than the current two bolt system. This board could then be a nice deep control board surface, hold the compass and maybe even a Scotty accessory mount. That's actually not a bad idea... it would require extra long J-bolts though and would be a monster to move... maybe not such a good idea, ha. Might reserve this idea for expedition sailing.

Here's the Hobie tube still connected after the sail, leeboards and control board were struck. I used the original mounting holes from Hobie so it only fits in this one spot.

Image

For the T9 pictured earlier, I found a matching tube size, from a clothes rack bar, cut it to size and drilled holes to fit the J-bolt and the Hobie extension akas.

I just remembered... one of the problems with mounting the Hobie on the board was that you couldn't push in the button on the bar if the pin came out facing the board... (which is the 'UP' ama position) this required drilling the board and using a tool to depress the button... no good.

The Hobie tube really needs to be slotted to be used efficiently. I haven't figured out how to do this yet short of taking it to somebody.

There are several considerations in drilling a new cross tube for the Hobie, take your time and think it through. I made several mistakes and ended up with three of them before one worked kinda properly for the T9. Slots are the way to go if you can figure it out.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:32 pm 
paddler

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:24 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Dennis,

Your Kayaksailor looks like the 1.6 model. Frank recommended that size too, instead of the 1.4 that Kayaksailor suggests on their website.

Thanks for the photos, and for linking me up with Frank. The check mails out tomorrow.

Buck


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:15 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1387
Location: South Salem, NY
Buck, yes, it's definitely the 1.6, I don't think there's any reason to go smaller especially if you are sailing the double. Keep in mind that the sail can be reefed and you don't need to use the jib.

If they could make this sail somewhere around 3.0 in about the same footprint with similar rigging it would be a perfect companion for an AII. As it is the 1.6 is a little small for that boat in my opinion. 1.6 worked pretty good for the T6 and I imagine a A1. Greg?

Did you get your outriggers?

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:11 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1060
Location: isles of scilly UK
I asked David at Kayaksailor a few years ago if he would consider making a larger sail, but he declined, no doubt the customer base might be too small and anyway it does power the Aerius 2 quite well. People are quite happy with it untill they actually compare it,s performance to a larger sail. The photo shows my mount which eliminates the front seat , but as i sail alone i needed to reach the sail from the rear seat.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:39 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1387
Location: South Salem, NY
Greg, have you tried the kayaksailor and the A1 combo yet?

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:19 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 810
Location: atlanta, georgia
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i36 ... pperKS.jpg

I have sailed the Klepper single with the KS rig a couple of times now, and they are very well matched, imo. I haven't been lucky with weather, it is tough to find a big wind day when I have free time, or so it seems. So I have not tested it in anything above 6-8 knots or so. This fall I am definitely going for a dry suit so that I can safely enjoy the windy seasons. Also will likely need aka/amas.

In the meantime the boat is a real pleasure. I replaced my Kahuna with this Klepper for no other reason than the difficulty I was having getting in/out of the Kahuna, the cockpit is just to short for my legs. The Klepper is a little more lively, definitely has less primary stability, which I owe to the higher volume and higher position in the water. I imagine if I loaded the Klepper with a couple hundred pounds of gear/ballast the two boats would feel much the same.

I got some great data from Chris Wilkes, on the forum, that will inform my decision about aka/ama rig. Based on his force calculations, which are very cool, and lead me to lean toward the BSD/BOSS system.

Now I think I will go fishing!

g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:34 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1387
Location: South Salem, NY
Wow that looks great Greg. I'd forgotten you had the red KS. A fortuitous combo there eh?

I may enter BSD world myself. There seems to be some issue(s) with mounting on multiple hulls. I'm sure if you go this route you'd like to be able to mount it on the Carbon AII as well. Maybe you can help me drag the pictures out of other BOSS owners here and we can figure out a way to mount one rig on two hulls.

Shop now for the dry suit if you can. Prices go up before winter. I like the design on the new Kokatat's. One of my fellow Auxiliarists has another dry suit company he likes as well. He thinks Kokatat makes their suits in China. I think they are home grown. I'll get the name of the other Co. for you as well. Although I love my K-tat.

d

PS - one picture? really?

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:59 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 810
Location: atlanta, georgia
My wife (justly) accuses of being the worst photographer, so less is more :lol:

g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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