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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 12:15 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
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Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Well, we finally got the Sailrite/Wilkes-designed genoa sewed up this week, and assembled on land between rain showers and strong winds. If it ever warms up we'll get out and try her with the main....72.2 sq ft. total. With the BSD-BOSS outriggers, should be good to about 24 mph gusts, but is mainly intended for light to medium wind sailing. To accomodate this large of a genoa, and to provide more head clearance to the captain and crew, we made a 12" longer lower mast for the gunter rig. Photos later. Oh, you can see this sail in the last 8 photos of this FB album: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 916c13c1c4

Chris

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1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 3:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:55 pm
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Location: Seattle, WA
Cool Chris! I sewed a Genoa this winter too and have tried it a couple of times. I can say I had it out in about 20 mph gusts and lost all control. While it may have been my lee-board placement (too far back) I want to caution that anything over 12-14mph can be hard to handle. My experience is limited, but want us all to be safe with these setups.


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 6:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
Chris that's a very impressive sail. I'd like to see what it looks like together with you elevated S2 mainsail.

Indy, what do you mean by 'lost all control?' What was the sail doing and how did the boat respond? Did you lose steerage? It is an awful lot of sail up on the bow. I should be great for those light wind days.

Really looking forward to hearing more about this Chris.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 8:42 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA
DLee- I'm referring to my story from a couple months ago posted here. http://foldingkayaks.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5866&start=30

Not trying to discourage, just suggesting caution in high winds.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
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Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Here is a Facebook album link of my boat with both the 32 sq ft Genoa and S4 main sail mounted: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 5aa9e9a5c0.

Thanks for the caution on sailing in high winds.....I expect that to be the case, and that is one reason that I have the fast retract system set up at the tack of the sail for both the genoa and my working jib.

Indy, how much square footage do you have on your new genoa? Did you design it and make it all yourself, or did you buy a Sail rite or other kit?

Indy, I read your link above to learn about your problems with 25 mph winds...very interesting. I need to play more with the postion of the leeboards....may be more important as I go to bigger sail area. One other thing, with the Hobie outrigger set that you have, from information on the ama size (0.3 cubic feet) and aka lengh (3') that I got from Dennis Lee last year, the wind speed to full ama submersion (ie. essentially capsizing), without hiking out, with a standard S4 sail rig is only 11.4 mph. With a major effort at hiking out, you can probably keep it upright to about 22 mph winds/gusts with the full S4 rig. I have a BOSS outrigger set with an ama displacement of 2.345 cubic feet, and a 6" aka length. With the S4 sail rig, the wind speed to capsize is about 29.6 mph, without any hiking out. For folks looking for good stability, I believe one, or possibly two sets, of BOSS outriggers are an excellent choice.

I'll let you know my experience with the new 32 sq ft genoa as I try it and get some experience with it. Happy sailing to all!
Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:55 pm
Posts: 65
Location: Seattle, WA
As always, these forums are full of awesome information.
I too made my Genoa/Jib and estimate the square footage at 22sqf. If I'm reading this right, I'm about 10 less than yours.
My Hobie Outriggers do indeed submerge in heavy winds but I have to think the size is larger than 0.3 cubic feet. I do have outrigger poles let in the 'up' position so I get a bit more lean before they even hit the water. I don't have a good means of hiking out (a new term for me) but I imagine that is part of why Dennis made his seat on the top of the boat so he can slide over to the side.
My first thought at reading you can do 30mph with your rig was "I must have BOSS outriggers immediately!".
My second thought was "Learn to control your Hobie sidekicks and upgrade when you're ready".
I'll keep providing updates as I play with my rig more now that it's nice out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:08 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
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Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Hello all,
When I ran the 32 sq ft genoa on the weekend on Lake Mendota in Madison, Wisconsin, I could not quite keep up with the BSD Sport 36 rigged boats (a canoe and a Kreuger kayak) when fairly close-hauled to the wind.....which might be expected due to the profile of the sail. I expect I could do better than them on a broad reach or running downwind, but we did not have the opportunity to sail that way with the pack of boats on Saturday. One of our most experienced sailors observed me for a while and concluded that I would do better with the genoa if I had the cam cleat further outboard to reduce the inward curvature of the sail aftward, so on Monday I moved the jib cam cleats to the ends of the aka extension bars on the Spring Creek akas and will try that next. See photos. This set-up will allow me to move the cam cleat out from the centreline of the boat anywhere from about 12" to 36". A bigger jib furler drum would also allow me to adjust the genoa sail area from 32 sq ft down to 5 or 6 sq ft, but I am not sure how effective the sail shape will be at all these variations....it will be fun experimenting. Anway, this experience is reconfirming my earlier thoughts that the fully battened BSD batwing sails are much better shaped than the Klepper S4 rig sails (especially my older stretched ones) for sailing close to the wind. I may purchase one soon for superior upwind performance. Smooth sailin' to all!
Chris


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_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:07 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I've always been interested in how the S4 and the BSD compared.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:09 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
What Chris T said.

Chris W. - I'll be interested to hear your comparison if you end up with a BSD rig. I don't think we've had that here yet. At least I can't remember anyone ever having both and writing about it. I think your idea of reducing the jib via furler is a pretty cool idea as well.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
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Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Hello Klepper/Long Haul Sailors,
Well, I finally got our 1965 Klepper A2 out sailing with the 12" long lower mast, S4 main, and Sailrite 32 sq ft genoa, for total sail plan of 73 sq ft., with the cam cleats for the genoa sheets mounted on the Spring Creek akas to provide much better genoa sail shape. Also added full width neoprene pads between the BOSS amas and my home made saddles for the ama mounts. This made for a much more rigid connection, and now no tendancy for the nose of the BOSS amas to dive, even with the large genoa sail, which tends to push the bow down. (Note: I believe this would be a good fix for all the OEM BOSS outrigger amas, since I hear many complaints about them diving and flipping over especially if just slightly underinflated). Sail and boat performance was much improved in the 6 to 9 mph winds out on Lake Geneva, Wisconsin on Sept 27, 2015. See photo below which shows the big genoa and head clearance under the raised boom connected to the longer lower mast. Now I'm ready to compare performance and speed with other BSD rigs, single, schooner, or other. And here's the link to a short you tube video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urf5DIZamao
Chris


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_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


Last edited by jcwlx on Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:05 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1077
Location: isles of scilly UK
Chris, this looks really good. It seems you have the early Klepper S2, did you move up the ,what i call "funny" hook that the boom goes onto as a raised boom seems to be a good idea for head room. It looks like BSD should look into them improving their mount to stop the apparent problem with the out riggers "diving" and can we expect Klepper to change theis sail to a modern one like BSD. One thing Klepper now have is the Pacific Action which i think replaced their "Freewind". No it didn,t the "Freewind " is still on the German Klepper site but the P A is better.


Last edited by john allsop on Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:15 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
Chris that really looks great! I like the video as it allows me to see a lot of detail.

First of all I need to congratulate you on effectively winning the race on sail area! 73 sq. ft., Nice!

That genoa has a lot of sail extending beyond the mast, how is it when coming about? When you get a chance, I'd love to see a new overall picture with both sails up and the elevated boom. You've really made some big design changes here.

The cleats you chose to put out on the Spring Creek aka look like they were a good choice, any issues or working perfectly?

You extended your mast by 12 inches right? On the bottom or top? I was also wondering about the guide you have mounted on the mast for the halyards, Where did you find that?

Finally (for this post, ha), are you rigging your main in the same manner as the Balogh rig with the 'wishbone' line arrangement behind the cockpit?

Looks really great Chris.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:17 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
Posts: 75
Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Dennis and John,
Thanks for your comments. I really just wanted a genoa for sailing on days of light steady breezes, so I could make a little better progress, and knew a genoa should work on the Klepper just like all sailboats. It works great now that the rigging is better tuned. You would probably not want to run the genoa on days of winds exceeding 12 mph or so, or gusty days, even with the BOSS outrigger, or bigger ones.

I found that with the genoa, because I can get good boat speed even in light winds, coming about is much easier. You want to change tack quickly, and backwind the genoa to assist in coming about. Didn't need any paddle assist on any of the 20 or 30 tacks I did that day.

There are photos of the rig with both sails up, including the genoa, on dry land (my yard) in the Facebook album I posted the link to a few months back. See:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 916c13c1c4. And: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 5aa9e9a5c0. If you look at these photographs closely, you can answer just about all the questions that you posed, and perhaps learn a few other things about what I've been doing. Have fun!

Yes, the cam cleats mounted on the Spring Creek amas and the one in the center of the SC UR all work perfectly. They are made by Harken, and I've been using them for about 8 years now. Harken is a top of the line supplier of small to gigundous sailboats (mega-yachts is probably the correct term), including many America's Cup and Volvo Ocean Racing sailboats. Their headquarters are in Pewaukee, Wisconsin, about 10 miles from my house. Good equipment, sold at all good sailboat shops.

The 12" longer lower mast is "longer" on the bottom....that's why the boom is 12" higher than the standard Klepper boom. The "funny hook" as John rightly calls it, is 12" higher from the bottom of the mast. You can easily make a 12" longer mast by purchasing aluminum round tube from your local metals distibutor (like Speedy Metals, in New Berlin, Wisconsin, about 10 miles from my house again). The new lower mast, with another set of 3 Harken blocks only cost me about $150, and I still have the old original Klepper mast fully set up in case I ever want to use it again (which is unlikely since I have better head clearance and visibility now; can run either the genoa or the working jib with this mast; and can run just a jib on this forward position mast with a BSD 36 sport batwing on a rear mast at the same time).

The "guide for the halyards" is just a simple double Harken block with a full swivel (in stainless and impact resistant plastic), serving exactly the same function as the brass one that is on my original Klepper mast. I lead the halyards to the moveable control board with its jam cleats. If I have a crew in the forward seat, the small control board for the two halyards, and the jib retract system is mounted just forward of the BOSS outrigger ahead of the front seat. If I sail alone, like in the photo above, I move the control board to mount it on the rear control board, so I can reach it easily for sailing.

I do not use a wishbone behind the rear cockpit seat for the mainsail control like on the BSD sail rig. I just run the main sheet forward from the aft end of the boom, and down through a single block to the cam cleat on the Spring Creek Universal Receiver control board. With such a small load on this small mainsail, you do not need a double block at all.

I hope that answer all your questions.

Happy sailing everyone.
Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:35 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
Hi Chris, I see both sails up together in the second link. Only the genoa is pictured in the previous link that I can see. If you ever get around to doing this again, I'd love to see an image of the two sails up from a more perpendicular angle of view. This way we might be able to add it to the 'visual sail comparison' thread.

I need to put a similar 'double Harken block on my mast leading to the control board. How did you mount yours to the mast? I guess I could tie it...

Is this the type of thing you're using: http://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=4388&taxid=410

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
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Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Dennis,
I'm sorry, if the third photo in the second album isn't good enough to add to your visual comparison thread. I don't plan on assembling it all again very soon for another photo opportunity. It's your decision if you want to use the photo that is out there or not.

If you look in the first album you will see a close up (sorry, it's a little out of focus, but completely understandable) of the double Harken block and exactly how it is mounted with a stainless steel eye to the lower mast. A picture is worth a 1000 words. It is the "29 mm Double Carbo Air Block, #342", work load 660 lbs, break load 1625 lbs, max line size 5/16". It has full 360 degree swivel capability. See: http://www.harken.com/productdetail.asp ... &taxid=416. Price $43.95.

Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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