Folding Kayaks Forum

The user forum for FoldingKayaks.org
It is currently Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:19 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:30 pm 
Trying out my new roller furling jib and mainsail roller reefing claw.

Image

The reefing claw also serves as part of the lazy jack system, allowing me to drop the main quickly without the sail and spars going everywhere. Very happy with the way it is working.

Need to add some stays though, to maintain proper tension on the jib halyard. The roller furling works OK, but will work more smoothly after adding stays.

Anyone know the "official" offset distance from the mast to the stay d-rings, or a formula for calculating it? I'll add some hypalon glued d-rings through the hull.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:19 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1400
Location: South Salem, NY
Rumbunctious, I'd love to see some pictures of how you are using that reefing claw. Where did you get these items?

I took some pictures of the location of the D rings on my Aerius II that are used for the mast stays.

Image

Image

Image

I measured from the seam that runs through the peak of the coaming. The center of the mast hole is at about 4.5 cm from the seam, and the D ring is back about 23 cm from the seam. So the distance of the D ring back from the Aerius II mast (center) is about 18.5 cm. Also note that on the Aerius II the D ring is sewed in directly above the sponson seam.

BTW, what a gorgeous scene.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:36 pm 
DLee wrote:
Rumbunctious, I'd love to see some pictures of how you are using that reefing claw. Where did you get these items?


I made the roller furler and reefing claw myself by hand, out of wood, to match the "retro" feel of the kayak. Here are some closeups:

Image
Image
Image

Quote:
I took some pictures of the location of the D rings on my Aerius II that are used for the mast stays.

...

I measured from the seam that runs through the peak of the coaming. The center of the mast hole is at about 4.5 cm from the seam, and the D ring is back about 23 cm from the seam. So the distance of the D ring back from the Aerius II mast (center) is about 18.5 cm. Also note that on the Aerius II the D ring is sewed in directly above the sponson seam.


Thanks! Exactly what I was needing. I've ordered some hypalon d-ring patches which I will install through the hull, making an incision in the hull to pass the ring through, gluing the patch on the inside. I'll perhaps need to tweak the measurements slightly to maintain the same angle with the lower attachment points. I'll make a temporary mark on the deck where the AII rings are attached and then use the stay to eyeball a line to the side of the hull that transects that point.

[/quote]

Quote:
BTW, what a gorgeous scene.

d


I am very lucky to have the Finnish archipelago as my back yard. I'm especially enjoying the kayak, having downsized from a 10m ketch, in that I am able to get in to nice secluded spots that I'd never be able to in a larger boat.

Cheers.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:45 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1400
Location: South Salem, NY
Pretty cool rhumbunctious,

I've been thinking of making both of these things but haven't been able to get out of my seat... you are inspiring me. Love the 'Jack stay' idea as well.

So, you roll the sail up by pulling the gooseneck off the mast, and then you just slide the reefing claw down over the sail from the end of the boom?

What did you use for the little rubber 'grabbers'?

No guide for the roller, just a spool?

Pretty sure you could sew the D rings easily with a hand awl if you wanted them up on the deck. Quite possible the hull position offers better support though.

Great stuff, thanks for the pics and inspiration.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:45 am 
DLee wrote:
Pretty cool rhumbunctious,

I've been thinking of making both of these things but haven't been able to get out of my seat... you are inspiring me. Love the 'Jack stay' idea as well.

So, you roll the sail up by pulling the gooseneck off the mast, and then you just slide the reefing claw down over the sail from the end of the boom?


Yep. You can leave the claw in place while rolling up the sail. Just disconnect the small line from the end of the boom that holds the claw in place, free the gooseneck from the mast, let off the main halyard a bit at a time and roll. Then return the boom gooseneck to the mast, reattach the line and tighten the halyard. It's easy to do while seated and pretty quick.

Quote:
What did you use for the little rubber 'grabbers'?


They are actually hard plastic wheels intended to be attached under furniture. I bought them new from the hardware store, so the wheels are clean and smooth, drilled out the axel pin to remove the wheels from their original attachments and installed them on the claw with washers and a through bolt.

Quote:
No guide for the roller, just a spool?


There is a very simple fairlead, made from a length of line around a splicing eye. Here is a closeup where you can see it:

Image

Quote:
Pretty sure you could sew the D rings easily with a hand awl if you wanted them up on the deck. Quite possible the hull position offers better support though.


There are a few reasons why I want the d-rings glued through the hull. Firstly there are gear bags that attach to the deck in that area, so they are in the way. Also, I want the extra strength and longevity of the hull attachment as I plan to be doing some extended coastal sailing with the kayak and will need to occasionally deal with heavier weather than I'd want to subject the deck cloth to if attached there.

When doing further examination and planning, based on the measurements you had sent, I realized that the boat already has mast stay attachment points installed, almost exactly where your measurements put them. There are a pair of aluminum brackets sewn into the inside of the deck under the deckline d-rings on each side which hook around the longitudinal side boards so that the tension is on the frame not the deck. I had thought they were simply for keeping the skin centered during assembly, and as noted above, because the gear bags cover them, I didn't put 2+2 together. It's actually silly that the gear bags make them unusable.

Still, even if they were usable, I think I'd prefer the hull attached rings and would have gone that route anyway.

Quote:
Great stuff, thanks for the pics and inspiration.
d


Likewise ;-)


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:02 am 
rhumbunctious wrote:
DLee wrote:
Pretty cool rhumbunctious,

I've been thinking of making both of these things but haven't been able to get out of my seat... you are inspiring me. Love the 'Jack stay' idea as well.

So, you roll the sail up by pulling the gooseneck off the mast, and then you just slide the reefing claw down over the sail from the end of the boom?


Yep. You can leave the claw in place while rolling up the sail. Just disconnect the small line from the end of the boom that holds the claw in place, free the gooseneck from the mast, let off the main halyard a bit at a time and roll. Then return the boom gooseneck to the mast, reattach the line and tighten the halyard. It's easy to do while seated and pretty quick.



Note that it's necessary to modify the attachment of the boom vang so that it isn't tied to the boom but rather is attached with a loop around the boom just behind the gooseneck so the boom can rotate. I have been experimenting with replacing the vang entirely with a kind of pin attached to the mast itself and which the gooseneck slides up against. It makes furling even easier and works well but I'm not fully satisfied with it and may go back to the vang. The main issue is that when dropping the main, the yard parrel (ring) will drop past the pin and when raising the main can catch on it and it's a bit of a nuisance to free up. I have some ideas about some refinements, and changes to technique, so I'll keep tinkering with it a bit. Fortunately it's easy to swap out for the vang in the field.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:15 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 825
Location: atlanta, georgia
Really creative stuff, thanks for pioneering and sharing. That is a really nice rig. Put it together with Dennis' platform idea and you can sail in just about anything.
As for the stays, I would highly recommend using the D-ring that is attached to the bracket. The design is sound, the force transmitted to the hull in heavy winds can be significant and I have been thankful, on more than one occasion, that I had the frame to take the strain. I would be concerned to rely on the hull alone, even with backing, to handle this. Ironically, I went for a sail this weekend in gusty, 15-20 mph wind and watched the windward stay pull on the D-ring causing it to deflect upwards by maybe an inch, and that is with the support of the bracket attached to the gunwale.
Just my $.02

g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:14 pm 
gbellware wrote:
Really creative stuff, thanks for pioneering and sharing. That is a really nice rig. Put it together with Dennis' platform idea and you can sail in just about anything.
As for the stays, I would highly recommend using the D-ring that is attached to the bracket. The design is sound, the force transmitted to the hull in heavy winds can be significant and I have been thankful, on more than one occasion, that I had the frame to take the strain. I would be concerned to rely on the hull alone, even with backing, to handle this. Ironically, I went for a sail this weekend in gusty, 15-20 mph wind and watched the windward stay pull on the D-ring causing it to deflect upwards by maybe an inch, and that is with the support of the bracket attached to the gunwale.
Just my $.02

g


Thanks for your input.

Unfortunately the d-rings with the bracket are beneath the deck gear bags, which I use a lot. The d-ring patches I've custom ordered have 25mm (1") d-rings but 180mm (7") diameter patches (i.e. way oversized) and are rated at 300kg each. I may also consider gluing a strip of hypalon on the inside of the hull, from patch to patch crosswise, which I think will be more than sufficient to handle any loads on the stays.

I also reef early and will be adding a mizzen sail, allowing me to effectively manage overall load on the main.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:40 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I believe that Mark Eckhardt (i.e. Long Haul) recommends gluing hypalon patches on with the D-rings in them-- he sells them, or can add them if he's doign some work on your hull (admittedly the latter is not likely from Finland).

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:14 pm 
chrstjrn wrote:
I believe that Mark Eckhardt (i.e. Long Haul) recommends gluing hypalon patches on with the D-rings in them-- he sells them, or can add them if he's doign some work on your hull (admittedly the latter is not likely from Finland).


That's encouraging to hear. Thanks. I know the glued on d-ring patches are used a lot on whitewater rafts for tow/rescue lines so I'm not too concerned about over stressing them in this application. Hypalon is pretty tough stuff, which is why I chose it over the other hull options available, despite being the heaviest.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:27 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1400
Location: South Salem, NY
Quote:
Yep. You can leave the claw in place while rolling up the sail.


Wow, of course (as he slaps himself upside the head)! This is the sort of thing that just doesn't 'occur' to... me... sometimes. That's why playing in the yard and on the water gets so much more accomplished. So I already started shopping for wood in my scrap piles, not sure I have a good contender yet. What kind of inner circle size did you end up with? and the gap in the opening? I'm excited to get going on this. Reefing has always been a big issue for me.

I'm thinking about the jib furler as well. Love that simple guide, genius.

I did some gluing on my T9 today. One side of the rudder assembly strap has ripped loose and I'm having a heck of a time getting it to glue back into place. I came very close to gluing 4 D ring patches from Long Haul onto the outer hull... but decided to wait as rain was pending. If I stumble upon any enlightening moments during the process I'll post them here.

I posted this link in another thread. It's a bunch of info from a guy that does a lot of canoe sailing and tripping, Howard Rice. Scroll through the 4 pages and check out some of the rigging he has going on. Interesting stuff. Check out his jib furler. It looks as if he has a continuous loop line running through a pulley/turn buckle at the base of the jib to roll the sail up. Beautiful sail, mast and boom.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?130739-Sylph-Prof-Howard-Rice-s-sailing-canoe

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:24 am 
DLee wrote:

... What kind of inner circle size did you end up with? and the gap in the opening? ...



The outer diameter is 12 cm and the inner diameter 6 cm. I probably could have gone with 10 / 5 cm but decided to err on the side of caution. I don't feel though that it's too large.
I made it out of 12mm marine plywood (birch).

Image
Image

Here's what the wheels looked like originally:

Image

Quote:

...
I posted this link in another thread. It's a bunch of info from a guy that does a lot of canoe sailing and tripping, Howard Rice. Scroll through the 4 pages and check out some of the rigging he has going on. Interesting stuff. Check out his jib furler. It looks as if he has a continuous loop line running through a pulley/turn buckle at the base of the jib to roll the sail up. Beautiful sail, mast and boom.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?130739-Sylph-Prof-Howard-Rice-s-sailing-canoe

d


Thanks. Looks very interesting.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:59 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1400
Location: South Salem, NY
That's a handsome piece of woodworking. Simple and clean. Thanks for the picture and sizes.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group