Folding Kayaks Forum

Spring Creek outfitters questions
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Author:  treecutter [ Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Spring Creek outfitters questions

I have Spring Creek outriggers that I plan to use with a LH Commando and a S2 Klepper rig.
Right now the total width of my outriggers is 7 feet. I plan to make new arms to increase this width to 12 feet.
How much width is there on the Balogh outriggers? I am hoping to be able to obtain a similar stability after this planned modification. Also, do the Amas/floats on SC offer similar flotation, or do the Balogh floats offer slightly more.
Will my planned modification give me a reasonable resistance to capsize.
I know many sail the S2 with no outriggers, but I plan to use this system in cold water and even though I wear a dry suit, I still don't relish swimming. Thanks in advance for your answers.

Author:  chrstjrn [ Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

12 feet seems a bit wide. I don't have access to my BSD rig, right now, but I would estimate that the BOSS are 8-9 feet wide. Widening the amas has a dramatic multiplying effect on the stresses on your rig, and the Klepper system wasn't designed for that. My guess is that you would be better off sticking with the 7-foot width and reducing sail. Otherwise, you might want to look at re-doing the entire rig, along with someone who has the knowledge, skill, and abilities to calculate the forces involved and make sure that you don't over-stress something.

Author:  john allsop [ Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

You could probably extend the outrigger arms to 9 feet if you have at least the longest universal receiver Spring Creek sell or buy a longer one. Then make the extension arms from 1x1x1/8 square tube. But the outriggers are small and will still go over if the wind is strong enough. What you could do is have to have TWO floats each side on SEPERATE extension arms. Fully test the outfit in a "safe" place as it is your life or the life of anyone with you. I did not test the rig in the photo in winds that could have turned me over.

Author:  DLee [ Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

Chris W. (JCLXW?) has done a lot of work on this. Hopefully he will chime in here. He's done the numbers for many different outriggers, their buoyancy, and safe windspeed for the various outriggers with matching sail area. Chris has also built his own outrigger system by using BSD amas which is a little more affordable and perhaps similarly adaptable to the Spring Creek rig.

I'll measure the BSD span and post here a little later.


Author:  treecutter [ Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

Thanks. I will wait to hear how wide the beam on the BOSS is. I have purchased square tube and am ready to start cutting.
I take it though that the BOSS is far superior ot the SP?

Author:  john allsop [ Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

Yes the BSD will be far superior than Spring Creek simply because they will have a lot more volume. One thing about Spring Creek is that the distance from the surface of the water to the outrigger can be easily adjusted, now the square tube you have puchased, if the wall thickness is 1/16 of an inch it may not be strong enough to resist the bending force that it might be subjected to. You might be able to strengthen it by putting square section wood through the inside. But to me if you are buying the BOSS outriggers why not buy the complete system which is what i would do and i am considering the BSD to add to a hard shell two seat sea kayak.

Author:  treecutter [ Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

Thanks John, No, I won't be buying the Boss. I already have the complete Spring Creek setup. The tube is exactly the same as the original SP. I guess the big question asides from getting the same beam as the BOSS is, how much less volume does the SP have than the BOSS. Would it be half?

Author:  john allsop [ Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

When i had the Spring Creek, which is a pretty good set up. i had my inboard floats on standard 1x1x1/16 arms and the outboard ones on 1x1x1/8 and i used the longest standard UR which i think is or was 45 inches long. Slots can be put on the centre line so long Klepper "J" bolts will go through so clamping it to the coaming. I will have to look to see if i have any comparisons in displacment for the Spring Creek and BSD outriggers. But unless you can let go that main sail VERY quickly when using a single Spring Creek each side you have the high probability of capsize. To have the possibility to let the main sail out you have to have the line or sheet that goes to the main sail all the time in your hand even then you might not be quick enough. Now the longer arms were 4feet long and Spring Creek welded the "clamping fittings" in the ends, but this does soften the fitting so it did not clamp tight enough. The photo shows how i clamped the Spring Creek on, at this time i was using one pontoon each side and a Pacific Action sail.I belive the Spring Creek pontoons are 838 cubic inches while i can,t see the BOSS it is about 3 or 4 TIMES the Spring Creek which of course makes the BOSS by far the best. A lot of people only use the Spring Creek to stabalize their boats for fishing and are not using sails.

Author:  treecutter [ Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

Thanks for that information John. I have already made slots in the universal receiver and I'm using the J bolts from the Klepper motor mount. It fits perfectly - very secure.
I was thinking that since so many sail the S2 with no outriggers, using the spring creek outriggers would give me that extra margin of safety. I am quite used to sailing small boats with out ballast and always hold the main sheet ready to let it go.
I was also thinking that the SC would be fine using just the jib or the main in higher winds.
I bought the SP 10 years ago with the lateen sail from Sailboats to go and I used that outfit on my Feathercraft Klondike.
So now that I have the Longhaul I didn't want to spend more on the Balogh if I could get away with the SP.
If anyone knows the total beam of the Balogh outriggers, please let me know.

Author:  john allsop [ Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

I hope i have been able to help in some small way. With the jib alone i don,t think you will really need outriggers, but it,s better to be sure than sorry. Yes a lot of people use the full S4 without outriggers but they go over. A heavy weight near or just in front of the mast might help, i have used "jugs" of water for this. see the comments by Dennis, who loves to sail without outriggers and seems to regard going over as part of the fun. Dennis i hope you don,t mind me refering to your entries. Here is my Aerius 2 with my Lateen sail. When you used your Lateen sail did you ever sail "loose footed"? if you did you would have attached the front "point" of the sail to the bow, how long did you find what length of line you needed. If you only sailed with both spars in did you allow the sail to "revolve" round the mast with no lines anywhere.

Author:  DLee [ Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

Hi guys, sorry for the delay in getting back to this. I got sidetracked with some work and simply forgot... my bad.

I just ran out and measured... three times... because the length is 11 feet end to end on my rig. The amas, have a 2 inch mounting connector which abuts the end of the aka. So distance from mounting center point to mounting center point is 10 feet 10 inches on my rig.

Treecutter, if you are used to sailing small boats this outrigger system should do you fine. I might even suggest getting the Long Haul Hike-out seats for use with the outriggers. This will allow you to really counter the sail if you get a good blast of wind. They are quite comfortable to lean on, arms, sides or seat bottom, and the counter force you get by raising up and out just a little is amazing.

Please keep in mind that I often sail on a very small lake surrounded by trees and hills. The lake is very gusty and that is really the cause of all of my capsizes. If you get out in open water the chances of having a steadier wind is much greater and the sailing will be smoother.

It's also important to remember that sailing doesn't have to be aggressive. The S4 can be sailed comfortably by loosing the sheets a little. Sometimes it seems more efficient not having them drawn in so tight.

Put the jib on a loop system so you can raise and lower it from the cockpit, that will make a big difference in the comfort level by giving you a large change in sail volume if the wind picks up.


Author:  treecutter [ Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

Thanks for all the help. Here is a picture of my Klondike with the lateen sail.
I will be getting the deck seat, hand tiller and control board with the S2.
I'll probably spring for the balogh outriggers as well.

Author:  john allsop [ Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

Thats nice, i would think that if you have sailed ok with this Lateen you won,t find any problems with the Klepper S4, an advantage is that with a little work you can easily lower the jib, or purchase a jib reefing system as sold by Klepper or a small one used for dingys. They have been talked about in the section, you could even make your own.

Author:  jcwlx [ Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

Treecutter, I have not been on the blog for sometime, but was just going to post a video for a sea trial done on Sunday with a new Sailrite 32 sq ft genoa on my Klepper with the standard S4 main sail, but 12" longer lower mast, and Balogh/Wilkes outrigger set up. I'll try posting with this....BUT regarding the use of the Spring Creek outriggers on a Klepper Aerius 2 or Long Haul Mark 2, with Klepper sails....ok for light winds and smooth seas. About 5 years ago I capsized my Klepper with this Spring Creek set up (with my wife aboard...fortunately in warm water with lots of nearby help), and as a result I set up a stability calculation and put in all sorts of data from different potential set ups to determine my best options to have stability up to about 30 mph winds/gusts. I am willing to share this with you, but suggest we discuss it on the phone after I send it. Then you can make up your mind what you want to do. I would not sail with Spring Creek outriggers in cold waters, with potential for strong gusts and heavy seas, because their displacement is very small (0.484 cubic feet), and the arm length of their standard akas is only about 6 or 7 feet. With this volume and aka length, and only one SC ama per side, the wind speed to capsize is about 13.7 mph, versus about 30 mph with the BSD BOSS system. If you put longer akas on the Spring Creek, like John Allsop and I did, with a 10 foot float spread, the wind speed to capsize on the Spring Creek only goes up to about 15.4 mph, and with a 12 foot spread it is still only 16.7 mph (again in both cases with only one SC ama per side). My spreadsheet gives data on the Spring Creek, the BSD BOSS system (2.345 cubic feet amas), Careen (European Klepper promoted outrigger), Hobie Sidekick, Harmony, Tridarka, Russian Taimen, and other outriggers avaialble. Please, let me know if you want it.

BTW, I bought a set of BSD BOSS outrigger ama floats, and made the center mount and akas myself for about $400 total for the entire outrigger set-up cost. Of course, I do not have the BOSS single leeboard, but use the Klepper double set up which works excellently.


Author:  treecutter [ Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spring Creek outfitters questions

Chris, That is very nice of you. I would very much like to see your spread sheet and I will email you in the next few days.
I was also wondering/contemplating about putting 2 SC hydro dynamic floats on each side instead of the current single.
I have a seven foot spread/beam which I have decided to leave that way as the metal I bought does not seem to be of the same quality as the SC arms.
What wind speed would I be able to tolerate with that setup? A pair of floats and float arms to augment my current setup are $259 from Sailboats to Go.
They also have a set of Hobbie inflatable floats with arms that fit into the Universal Receiver for $129 ( discounted because the color is green and not popular ) so they say. However, my new Comando Longhaul is green so it would suit my tastes.

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