Folding Kayaks Forum

This is in answer to comments from Dennis in Trip planning. Dennis, I'm interested in all aspects of sailing including setting up the boat for effective hiking out and I'm working on ideas for making that happen. However, although that's the direction my heart lies, my head tells me that sitting inside with BOSS outriggers on is safer and more practical. And the talk about BSD amas causing drag doesn't seem to be a problem if there is wind. Sure, the more wind the more drag, but despite that, the more wind the faster you go. So much so that there can be so much wind we have to reef. Despite ama drag. When there's no wind the ama drag does matter because I'm paddling, but that's when ama drag is at its very least anyway. But we still love to try to build a better system, don't we?
Also Dennis asked if I'd tried the ketch rig and I now have briefly. It handles fine, but I'm not happy with the mizzen mast rising from just in front of rib 6 through my skirt chimney. I can't lean back comfortably. I'm thinking of sometime moving my seat to the center position and bringing the mizzen forward another foot or more. It involves a few other changes like also moving the aka forward. But it brings benefits of being able to reach and handle both sails and masts from the solo center position with spray cover attached, and I prefer in a big blow to have the smaller sail aft where it gives plenty of weather helm for heaving to. And it's a better arrangement for sleeping aboard, which I sometimes do. Maybe I'll change it next year. And has anyone managed to capsize with the
BSD amas attached, and what happened? I've had one go a foot or two underwater, which does cause a lot of drag.
Roberto

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2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

Hello Rob,
I am surprised to hear that you completely buried a BSD BOSS ama a foot underwater. On my Klepper A2 I have had a BOSS ama nose forward and almost flip over, but not even come close to going completely underwater.....at which point you are close to capszinig. I have completely buried a Spring Creek ama (much much smaller, at only about 0.43 cu ft displacment) than a BOSS one (about 2.3 cu ft), and with only a 3' long akas at the time (vs 5' on the BOSS rig). The boat stablility calculation (equating heeling moment to righting moments, and calculating for max wind speed for full ama submersion, the point of capsizing) , shows that to completely bury a BOSS ama, you need about a 30 mph wind, or gust, on a Klepper A2 with S4 55 sq ft sail plan. If you get into 30 mph winds, or gusts, it's time to reef and/or let out on the sails for safety's sake. Good luck!

Chris

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1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat

Hi Chris,
Yes, I was surprised to see an ama go completely underwater, and it completely stopped the boat. On the day in question forecast was 15 to 20 knts, which is about the windiest I would normally choose to go out in. I had a 22 mile open water crossing to do. Actual wind speeds as recorded at a nearby weather station while I was sailing were up to 27 knt [31 mph] sustained and up to a 33knt [38 mph] gust. I had my 36 BSD reefed down its minimum 22 sq ft. I was trying make headway up directly into the wind where the nearest safety lay. Slow progress to windward by tacking while intermittently paddling as hard as I could. I have little doubt that if I'd been more alert and always either luffed up or eased the sheet in time or both, then the ama wouldn't have submerged. I'd already been on the water several hours with the wind increasing. I was tired and a bit scared. The BSD amas were getting pushed around so much I feared one may be ripped off the aka. But that never happened and there's no visible damage, and I made it to shore eventually.
I'm impressed with the strength of the BSD ama and it's attachment to the aka, but I'm sure it could fail as anything can in the sea. But from that experience I think capsize is more likely. I would have liked a smaller sail or a viable downwind destination. Dennis would possibly suggest hiking out to ease the pressure on the ama. If you're tied to the boat and athletic enough that would work, but you're still susceptible to capsize if you're tired and slow. The experience has give me impetus to get a practical ketch rig for solo use sorted so I can have my BSD 18 sq ft as a mizzen, which reefs to 15 sq ft. Another way to avoid capsize is add extra or bigger amas, if you don't mind the extra weight, windage, money. Of course if I'd known the wind was going to increase that much I could have put my smaller 18 sq ft on the sole mast before launch, and then reef it when needed, but by the time the wind was too strong for 36 reefed to 22 it would have been difficult and slow to change. To grapple with mast sections, unrig and stow sail and replace it with the 18 reefed to 15, all the while bouncing around and blowing downwind into bigger waves and closer to a lee shore with surf, and further from safety and rest. It's a physically tiring and psychologically difficult option to choose, and I didn't choose to do that. I kept on and hoped everything would be OK. I was lucky.
I hope this illustration gives the sailors food for thought about their preparations for unexpected weather.
On a more cheery topic Chris, I'm very interested in your figures on wind speed, heeling forces, and amas. We all have a lot to learn.

Roberto, Moreton Bay, Australia

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2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

Amazing scene Roberto. I probably would have done exactly the same in terms of keeping the sail and riding it out. Those are some mighty strong winds.

It's a hard call on whether hiking out would have been a productive thing to do or not. Certainly keeping the downwind ama out of the water, or at least dragging less, would be helpful in making way and putting less stress on the rig. The flip side would be the safety factor of putting yourself out there in those conditions. Falling out of the boat in wind like that could create a lot of problems even if you were attached to the boat. Assuming the boat wouldn't capsize it could be difficult getting back in and you would certainly have lost a lot of ground by the time you did get back aboard.

On the other hand, keeping that leeward ama out of the water might have done a few things in your favor. First it might have alleviated some of your fear of an equipment failure in the form of the aka/ama being damaged and creating a real issue out there. Second, it could have put much less drag on the leeward side of the boat and allowed for better upwind progress? Were you fighting the drag of the leeward ama with your rudder?

The bottom line is that hiking out has to be within your comfort zone during the situation at hand and you need the right gear. In that kind of wind I would imagine a life line would be mandatory. The drag of you falling out of the boat would certainly stop the boat in it's tracks. But you wouldn't want the boat blowing away before you got back to it. You would also want a good cushion to make the hike out comfortable. Solve both of these issues with one call to Mark at Long Haul and order a set of Hike-out seats and harness. You won't be sorry.

Considering that you did survive though makes me think that a certain amount of confidence in boat and crew grew out of the experience. So the next time you experience wind like this, it might just be plausible to take it that one step further and try to counter that lee side pressure a bit. Especially if it's a warm day over warm water, blue skies and a mighty wind. The scene can certainly determine our mood and deep clouds overhead can put a quick calm on my sense of adventure.

I'm not sure I understand how the mizzen arrangement with the BSD 18 would have helped in this situation. In the typical mizzen situation the 18 alone would be too far back for forward momentum wouldn't it? Is your forward sail in the Long Haul mast partner or in the center of the boat? I'm not sure how you are set up - I'd love to see a picture.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

In terms of hiking out in calmer conditions I have a couple thoughts as well. Again, and I'm sorry to sound like an advertisement here, but the Hike-out seats I got from Mark simply make hiking out a viable option where it really wasn't before. I tried several different ways of doing it and it was always a failure. These things work. I can make a picture of them if you'd like to see more detail of how they are set up.

Here's a comparison that might get you to consider taking those akas off Roberto. You like to ride right? Well, remember when you were a kid, and you knew how to ride a two wheeler, and yet you had to try that bike that still had the training wheels on it? Remember that incredible restriction that the training wheels put on the bike? It couldn't be ridden like normal. You always wanted to lean more than the training wheels would let you. The outriggers on the MKII or AEII are exactly the same thing as training wheels on a bike. I'm not saying they don't serve their purpose. I'm not saying that in snotty conditions or at the end of a long day they aren't great. I loved sitting back and relaxing with the ride leaving the BOSS in control. But if you want to have some real fun, take the akas off, put some hike-out seats on and try it out, you won't be sorry.

Hiking out is mandatory however. It is not possible to counter the power of the sail while remaining in the cockpit of the boat. I've tried every means I could think of and the only one that works is standing, and standing is very very nerve wracking; but you can put a foot on the coaming and simply push down and it will straighten the boat smoothly and easily. I think the sailing deck is a huge factor here but possibly not... But back to reality... sitting on the gunnel, the actual sponson outside the coaming, produces more counter weight than I have been able to use with my 36HP. I have not been out in steady 30mph winds like this but I have confidence it would work. The counter weight of sitting on the gunnel is so great I can't even imagine using the harness I have to actually lean further out. Although a 30mph wind might be it. The amount of control you have over the lean is extremely adjustable and fully controllable. To me it's one of the most natural feelings I have in the boat and I'm not a terribly athletic guy.

I probably wouldn't take my akas off and hike-out for the duration of a 20 mile crossing in 30 mph winds... but I am looking forward to trying it in 10-20+ winds on a new lake I recently found in my neighborhood. Mark's seats are comfortable, I still catch a little of the coaming edge sometimes but for the most part they are great. In mild wind it can be frustrating as you want to get up on them but there's not enough wind in the sail to warrant the counter lean. Who knows, if the testing ground I found works out I may just try the twenty mile crossing of Long Island Sound next spring without outriggers (but they will be in the boat in case I need them...).

I'm realizing now that I've only sailed the MK1 without the akas and amas... can't imagine the AEII won't be even more stable... but you never know. I'll advise when I get a chance.

Looking forward to some pictures Roberto,

And where's Greg?! He just did an amazing trip down Florida way in monster winds and no outriggers?

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Dennis,
I suppose there must be at least a couple of other guys interested in all of this. A few thoughts. Having a practical system for hiking out is also of interest to me as a back up system if an ama or aka fails. Likewise for a two sail system. I have been mostly using the BSD schooner rig and sometimes practicing using only the sheets and leeboard adjustment to steer with the rudder up. It paid off when I broke my rudder blade in a bad broach one time. Using the paddle to steer was just too hard but I could easily steer to my chosen shore with adjusting the sheets alone. I like to have backup systems.
In answer to your question of my rig set up. I gave up taking photos years ago and wouldn't know how to put them up here anyway. Sorry. My long haul mark II is still set up as the regular BSD schooner rig, same as you can see on their websites. My sails are a 36 and 18 sq ft. I almost always sail solo in the rear seat, and use a canoe paddle. I can put the 36 mast at the front end of the cockpit and the 18 immediately behind my rear seat to make a cat ketch rig but it's not optimum.
I may try to set up a cat ketch rig something like this following description. I sit in the solo center seat position, between ribs 4 and 5, two feet further forward than now and move the mizzen mast forward to about a foot behind me, midway between rib 5 and 6. This requires moving the aka, with its leeboard, forward by two feet or more forward to maybe just behind rib 3. I'm hoping the benefits to this to be that I will then be able to more easily reach the mainmast in front, while on the water, for reefing or furling, and the mizzen is no longer uncomfortably close behind me. It may also give me a slightly better sleeping position when I have to camp aboard. The balance between underwater lateral resistance and sail centre of effort looks about right on paper, but I've still some issues to sort out in my mind about how and where to run sheets, and other things, including hiking out. And I like to always have the velcro spraycover on for safety and comfort. In addition, the new aka position allows me to have a third, optional mast position in the aka mast collar by rib 3, which gives a well balanced position for single sail only ,i.e. cat sloop.
It's still possible to sail to windward with the mizzen alone, but you have to counter the greater weather helm with more rudder pressure and/or swinging the leeboard further aft. If you lift the rudder out then the boat will point up into the wind and sit quietly crawling a little forward or dropping a little back. And you can adjust this a bit by pivoting the leeboard forward or back. If I wanted to cover a lot of distance in very high winds it would be more efficient to move the small 18 sq ftmizzen sail to the central position at rib 3, where it's better balanced, and reef it to 15 sq ft when needed.
So, in summary, I'm trying to set this double kayak up as an efficient, safe, solo, long distance cruising sailboat.
I hope that's a clear word drawing. It's only in the planning stage. Comments welcome.

Roberto

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2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

Roberto I think that sounds like an excellent plan.

I currently have my aka about 13 inches back from the mast hole on my AEII and I think it's a pretty good position for the aka but not necessarily for the lee board. With the 36HP in the mast partner of the boat the lee board position had little effect on steerage... at least the one time I tried it in light to medium winds. Having both the sail and lee board around rib number three seems like better positioning for single sail sailing. It also sounds like a good position for the lee board with ketch setup. If you end up doing any drawing on the subject email them to me and I will post them up here is you want to share them. Looking at the MKII frame on the Long Haul site, and imagining this placement on my AEII it sounds great.

I have a LH solo velcro cover for my AEII, if you like I can place it over the boat and see where the placement sits. I believe it may have you closer to rib four than you might like. I've put it on the boat but I've never actually used it. You know I've never sailed with the spray cover on... I guess I like to move around too much. Thinking about it now I'd love to have one on the boat but I can't imagine tying myself down to one posting like that. It would probably help keep a lot of water out of the boat during a capsize.

I have been talking to Mark about making a cockpit 'well' (for lack of a better word) that would cover the front of the cockpit and leave a 'well' or 'tub' of material that the pilot would sit in/on while sailing. This would catch water from spray or a capsize so that the entire boat doesn't fill up. I've even thought that handles on the bottom would allow it to be pulled inside out when righting after a capsize to empty all the water in one fell swoop as the boat comes back up. Kind of like a giant open air sea sock. I picture it just like an Expedition spray cover with a large well in the center rather than a simple hole for a skirt. In a perfect world there would be access to below decks both fore and aft.



Have you put a sailing deck in your boat? If not, how do you deal with the ribs when sleeping?

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Some impressive sailing in rough water. Note that all these guys are hiking out with their outriggers. Impressive rigs, and I really like the reefing system. All from Solway Dory I'm guessing.

http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?49193-Around-the-Isle-of-Wight

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Dennis,
Yes please, put the LH solo velcro cover on your AE II and tell me how far along the coaming does the velcro open toward rib 3, and how forward or back between ribs 4 and 5 does wearing the chimmney allow you to sit if you're on a LH comfort seat?
And if you open the velcro fully, and kneel on the keel board between ribs 3 and 4, how comfortable is it to assemble/disassemble mast sections on the mast base in the klepper mast collar just behind rib 2? Do you think that will be practical actually on the water when the seas get up in strong winds? Imagine that there's a BOSS aka thwart maybe 3 or 4 inches behind rib 3, if that's about where the velcro of the spray cover ends ends?
I think your cockpit well idea has merit. I'm going to think about if it could be of use to me. I can understand that it could be of great use to the type of sailing you do. I'm very interested. Have you read Dana Lambs 'Enchanted Vagabonds',1930's ? He built a canvas well inside the cockpit of his self built skin on frame canoe. It could be opened with a zipper giving access to the under deck cargo. I'm only guessing that the zipper was along the top edge of the well. Velcro would also serve although waterproof zippers do exist now. "With the exception of a cockpit scarcely big enough for the two of us, she was decked over.....Unless the hull was punctured, or the canvas well of the cockpit removed, the boat was unsinkable." However, in a storm at sea "...as the wind increased the seas became so high that they washed completely over the canoe, filling the cockpit....Despite continual bailing, the cockpit was full of water, and we were reduced to trying to keep afloat. It became a nightmare."
I don't suppose Dennis will ever be caught in a storm well out at sea off the coast of southern California but it's something to think about. We could complicate the design by adding a removable cover, with chimney over the cockpit well. Then it's a variation of a spray cover with a sea sock. It's fun to think about the possibilities. I even enjoy testing the prototype and finding the flaws so I can go back to the drawing board. I will let you know if I come up with anything more which may aid your design ideas.

When I sleep aboard, I rearrange my LH comfort seat by taking off the cushions and folding it flat, then using those cushions and some cargo to roughly smooth out the ups and downs over the ribs and cover it all with a closed cell foam sleeping mat rolled out from the mainmast between ribs 4 and 5 to the stern under the aft deck. I sleep with my feet right up in the point of the stern. It's a rather uneven bed, but if I'm tired enough I usually sleep OK, and it enables and, encourages an early start.

The LH hike out equipment has gone on to my provisional shopping list along with the LH solo velcro spraycover.

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2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

Very,Very interesting. If my wife improves so i can get out sailing i might be able to join in, when you live only about 90 steps or less from the beach it makes me green with envy. Dennis, the sail on my Triak reefs the same way as the ones in the video, around the mast, the only drawback is that they can,t be any shrouds although i am thinking of a way to do it and still have the mast turn. My sail is loose footed and if tension is kept on the sail it winds onto the mast nice and tight. Can,t be done of course with the S2 gaff rigged sail. To-day the wind is gusting upto 35 MPH.

Thought you might like that John. Is that close to you?

I haven't had the BSD out in extreme winds yet, but I have to say that the need for stays hasn't been an issue yet. I'm going to share a link to the Solway Dory Expedition Bermuda rig in another post. This is a very simple system that reefs easily to a very small sail. I'm guessing it would drop right into use with our coamings mast partners as well.

Roberto, I'll put the cover on and make some measurements for you soon as I get a chance.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Roberto, had a few moments the other day so I threw the solo velcro cover on my AEII. Didn't have the tape measure handy but hopefully this will give you some idea of the arrangement.




AEII open cockpit and LH Velcro Tuck Under solo spray cover - This cover is at least ten years old, design may have changed.




Cover open forward and back. The BOSS cross bar is slightly ahead of rib #3 - the tightening nut abaft the bar is directly over the rib.






I think rigging and striking the mast might be a bit of a stretch with this cover on. I didn't think to sit in the boat and try out the reach. I did it pretty easily without the cover from behind the BOSS mount at rib #3. I'm not sure the angle of the opening will give you enough reach. I haven't used this cover so I don't have any sense of lengthening the velcro opening for better forward access. But it's something worth asking Mark about.

Here are some quick shots of the Hike-out seats









The straps on the Hike-out seats are pretty long and I'm guessing they have that length to reach out and around the cockpit hole of the Expedition spray skirt. I haven't tried it yet. Will advise when I do. I'm not sure how well the velcro tuck under will fare in the same scenario. It was getting dark and I didn't have time to move them over to the big boat so you get to see them on the MK1. I remove the sling seat bottom and replace it with a Type IV Life preserver cushion. I then cover the cushion and center rib with a precision cut (ha) foam pad. I can sit very comfortably on my knees with this set-up and move easily onto the Hike-out seats while sailing.



This last picture shows a fun way to secure all these rudder components at the stern of the boat really easily... the rudder rides in the cockpit.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Thank you very much for all the effort you made to get those photos Dennis. They tell me all I want to know, and the rudder yoke and pin stowage idea is something I can use.
Roberto

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2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

All this looks interesting. I have never needed to hike out and always sailed with a spray cover on, from the back seat. The mast on the Triak is turned by pulling the appropriat line from the seat, the mast can,t be reached, i will take a photo of the simple way it,s done. The Isle of Wight is over 200 miles away in a south easterly direction from the "Scillies", along the south coast of England. A trip in a kayak could be a hazardous sail and i doubt if anyone has ever tried it.

John,
So, are you considering what would be required for an extended sailing voyage from home? From the Isles of Scilly, across to Cornwall, and along the coast to the Isle of Wight perhaps? That is an interesting idea.
Roberto

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2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S