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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 11:05 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Raining all this week it seems.... and nobody is posting in the Sailing Column! What the heck!?

Alright, I'm going to throw something out that I've been thinking about for a while. I think we all love our Kayaksailor's right? I believe we all must think the quick rigging of Mick's Flat Earth sails is pretty cool. Those of us with Kleppers, Folbots and Long Hauls all have a nice mast hole at the front of our cockpits. Can anyone guess where I'm going here? Has anyone else wondered about this?

Do we really need the track arrangement of the Kayaksailor for using that awesome KS sail in our mast ready boats? I keep thinking there must be a simple way to reconfigure the KS sail so that is can be just dropped into that mast partner, hoisted up, and off we be.

Using the Klepper lee boards works better than the KS ones (on the Klepper's peaky bow)... the Klepper cross bar (for the lee boards) could probably manage the lines... stays are an issue and would need two stages for reefing or full sail positions... we might have to lose the jib and forestay... but just think how small a package it would be, just the sail and collapsable mast. It could easily be shoved forward under the bow or into a sleeve on the foredeck.

For those days when it seems like sailing just might not happen, but it could... a super light rig like this would be very simple to take along... the Flat Earth sailors don't even use lee boards. Actually, thinking about the Flat Earth sails, maybe the modified KS could be raised and lowered in a similar fashion.

Anyway, a thought for a rainy night. A tempt for a lonely column. Please, please, I beg of you, the sailing threads lay too idle... in Irons, dead in the water... adrift dagnabbit... speak ye, ye of the clothe that billows to the wind.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:20 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1709
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Sorry about no posts. I joined a local sailing club and am racing 850 lb behemoths called Flying Scots, as well as the odd Catalina 25.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 12:02 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
That sounds like a ton of fun! Or 42.5% of a ton of fun! ha.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 12:21 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1709
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
It is. Good social element, too. But much less freedom than my Klepper, on many levels. The limitation that might not be immediately obvious is that imposed by the greater draft of the Scots. But there's also scheduling the boats, passing their exams to be allowed to use them, etc.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 3:03 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Oakland, California
Dennis,
Interesting idea!
Questions: Would placing the mast in/at the Klepper mast fitting be the best location? What would it do to weather/lee helm? Where do you currently locate the Kayaksailor mast?

Chris,
My late father in law had a Flying Scott. Nice stable center board design. Locally there is a fleet in Tomales Bay at the Inverness Yacht Club. Look them up if you come out West!

Chris O.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 6:49 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Interesting looking boats ChrisT. - I kind of expected more big wood planks, an open hull and massive sail, ha. Kind of like an old workhorse on the water. These boats look a LOT more modern. I like that big stern deck though. I would actually love to get involved with something like that. But I've already too many commitments that I can't make. C'est Live.

Chris O. - I'm glad you asked this because I was trying to remember the location as well.

Check out this sail comparison link from a while back: http://foldingkayaks.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=6177. The KS is the last 'sail' picture in the thread and it's a little hard to tell but rigging with the track puts the sail a little forward of the mast partner.

The boat pictured is my MK1. On my Aerius II the KS definitely creates a weather helm. I doubt that the move back 6 inches will change that. I had even wondered about reconfiguring the entire mount to move the sail further back into the cockpit to create less of a weather helm on the double.

I am not positive but I believe the MK1 gets a weather helm as well with the KS mount. It must be a weather helm as I would remember if it were the opposite. I'm guessing the MK1 would continue to point its nose to the weather with the move back, but it might exhibit a more neutral balance(?).

Looking at the MK1 and KS picture I realized that moving the sail into the mast partner will also move it back into my 'head space,' not sure how keen I am on that. This might require raising the sail up a bit like the S1 main sail (also pictured in the previous link).

The KS mounting system in not a big deal on a boat like the Aerius II. I think it might even be stow-able under in the forward part of the cockpit if you are paddling solo. But for a boat like the MK1, Aerius 1, maybe even the T9 etc., losing that track would be a huge improvement.

I find it hard to think about dismantling the KS as it's such an efficient system... but if the mast and sail could just be dropped into place, and be 'instantly' set..., that would be hard to beat. It's a great little sail.

Would the mast hole be the best location? I don't know... but I think it would be the easiest. The Flat Earth sails sit really far forward.

Here's a question for you, would the weather helm of the Flat Earth sails make it easier to sail without lee boards, lessening the load on using the paddle for that purpose? I believe all those folks sail with rudders.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:02 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Ok, thought about it, rummaged, thought again, sun came out, too windy to fly my RC glider, didn't feel like doing yard work, rummaged again, light bulb illuminated, started working...;

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

I cut the 1.5 inch wood dowel a little long but now think it might be the right size... notched the wood on the bottom into a square for the registration hole on the deck. Not going to register the mast in the dowel until I give it a test run.

I have some ideas for repurposing the KS lee boards but before I do that I'll sail with the Klepper lee boards; just to make sure this is a viable sail (rigging) option. I put one coat of varnish on the mast extension and will try and get another coat on before I put hardware on the wood.

Couple of technical things to work out yet, like that upwards sail strike... and rigging for the main sheet. I have some ideas but open to suggestion.

The neat thing is that when struck it fits into the paddle pocket and tie down.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:26 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
By the way, I disassembled as little as possible from the original rig, and in that minimal amount, I came across more exceptionally tied knots than I ever expected. I think David and Patti must spend their nights tying lines. I retied every one I could so it wouldn't lose it's original shape and position.

Taking the mast off was also an amazing reminder of how brilliantly engineered this entire Kayaksailor rig is. The quality of all the parts are top notch and the workmanship totally professional. I actually felt a little bad disassembling it...

We'll see what the sea trials reveal.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


Last edited by DLee on Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:34 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 420
That is looking really interesting, Dennis. Looking forward to hearing hearing more about how it sails and stows once you're on the water.
All the best,
Ian


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:53 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 602
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Looks great Dennis,

You might want to consider fitting some kind of collar to the top of the wooden dowel sleeve to stop it from splitting. Either a fibreglass sheath or a quick and easy ss hose clip would do I should think

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:31 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Thanks guys, yeah we'll see what happens. Going to go out and put the MK1 together in a little bit.

I'm thinking the same thing Simon. Not sure which way to go, but I know I want to stay away from clamps and that sort of thing. A well fit aluminum tube section or even fiberglassing the top with a continuous sheet, I don't know. Right now I'm just going to try it... if it breaks I'll know it needs some work. The wood dowel was not the original idea... it just happened. If it works well it will be a super simple solution to what could be a complicated scenario of nested aluminum tubing, etc.

Some data; the dowel is 1.5 inches and the hole and KS mast is 3/4 inch. David and Patti from KS told me the mast will nest perfectly with 7/8 tubing.

I thought about drilling a 7/8 hole and epoxying a section of 7/8 tubing inside as a sleeve... but I'm not sure that will actually make it stronger. It seems to me, something around the outside would be stronger?

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:05 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 602
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Outside would definitely work better at stopping the dowel from splittling. Your aluminum sleeve idea sounds good if a very slight interference fit can be acheived

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:20 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
siravingmon wrote:
Outside would definitely work better at stopping the dowel from splittling. Your aluminum sleeve idea sounds good if a very slight interference fit can be acheived


What do you mean by 'slight interference fit?'

Well I set up the MK1 and the sail fit fine but my registration square is far too small on the Long Haul, it rotates fairly freely. But that's not a problem.

What might be a problem is actually striking the sail from the cockpit sitting position. Unless I get up on one knee I can't really reach the mast... ha. I didn't anticipate this... Getting up on a knee is fine and no biggie in calm water, but in rougher water when getting the sail down might be kinda important... well, it could be a problem. I realized that I can lift the boom up and pull the mast out that way. But, and I did this twice, when the mast clears the partner the boom pin swivels and the boom comes crashing down right on your head. Ouch. Yep, twice. Proven. Ha.

The Klepper lee boards are a little wide on the MK1 but they will work for now. I can hand line the main sheet but don't really want to. Not coming up with a great solution there... the boom isn't long enough to do the triangle at the back of the coaming. I have a Harken hanging swivel that I can use on the lee board cross bar but it's not very efficient. I'll have to play with this.

The boom rests at about side of the head/ear level which isn't great either... but it's light and easy to grab...

I figured out a lifting line for striking the sail. I'll tie a block to the end of a line then run the line through a hole at the mast cap of the lower mast until the block rests against one side of the mast cap. The line will then run down to the boom on the opposite side of the sail from the block, go under the boom and then back up to the block. From the block it comes down to me in the cockpit where I can pull it to raise the sail. When the sail is pulled up by the boom the sail should be contained by the two lines on either side. I'll try rigging this tomorrow if I have time. The issue here is that I need some type of guide on the bottom of the boom to keep the line from slipping off. The material of the sail covers almost all the boom except for a section in the center (where the main sheet is connected) and the end of the boom. If I use the end of the boom I'm concerned the sail won't catch between the two lifting lines. Open to suggestion on this.

On a positive note it seems like when the sail is struck upwards (still in the mast partner but folded up [literally]) there should be plenty of room to paddle. The bungees on the front deck of the MK1 are a little tighter than the pockets on the Klepper but this shouldn't be an issue for stowing the sail if I can get it out of the mast partner, ha.

What else... oh, the tie down lines, shrouds ?, on the MK1 are in about the same spot as the Klepper, a little to the stern of the mast. I don't love this and would prefer that the sail be allowed to swing a little further forward. But the KS rig is about the same. I think the wind/sail can push against the shrouds a bit if necessary. This again harkens to the necessity of being able to strike the sail quickly and efficiently though.

Still nice potential but the difficulty in removal may be a deal breaker for the singles. On the double crawling forward to pull it out is no big deal.

Keep the ideas coming. Before I started this I never realized you can't just drop the sail... Obviously that's the genius of the Kuvia track design. sigh.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:31 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 602
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
An interference fit is one where the outer diameter of the dowel is slightly greater than the inner diameter of the sleeve that goes over it, so in this case you'd be e.g. tapping the sleeve over the dowel with a mallet. This way the outer surface of the dowel is slightly under compression and so more resistant to splitting

Good luck with this. I'm following it closely as I'm thinking of fitting a hobie kayak sail to the front of the cockpit of my Quest, using a fibreglass mast

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:43 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Got it, that would be nice.

Frankly for the quest the standard Kayaksailor is a great rig. The deck on that boat is very flat right? David and Patti use Pakboats in a lot of their videos.

But again, the issue I have, and the one you're probably considering, is having all that hardware on the front deck when you're NOT sailing.

The Quest has a pretty small cockpit, how are you thinking of seating the sail in the hull and attaching the mast to the edge of the coaming? At least you won't have the 'reach' issue I discovered today. How big is the Hobie sail?

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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