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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:14 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 602
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
The deck on the Quest isn't that flat or that long - remember the whole kayak is only 13' 9".

It also helps that I already have a 19 sq ft. Hobie Kayak sail, although the lower triangle is useless and would have to go anyway to clear the paddler and paddle

I'm thinking of attaching the mast to keel and then locating it against the back of the 2 deck ridge tubes and the forward deck hoop, but have been a bit short of time lately to play around with the idea and in any case the next delivery of telescoping 6 metre fibreglass fishing rods (= mast material) still hasn't arrived in country.

The Quest cockpit may seem small to you, but as far as I can recall it's nearly 90 cm so quite big by sea kayak standards. Fixing the sprayskirt around/to the back of the mast may be an issue, then there's the mainsheet routing...

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:27 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Hey Simon, got a link for that telescopic tubing? I'm a huge fan of telescoping fishing rods and they are not popular here in the states. I have a 3 meter Graphite rod that I broke years ago and would love to replace or repair it.

I was thinking about your rigging and it comes to mind that you'll probably be pretty dependent on good stays/shrouds for your mast. On the Klepper there are metal clips below (on the underside of the deck material) the D rings on the deck. These 'clips' hook around the frame tubing to extend the strength of the D-rings down to the frame. Not sure if you were familiar with this arrangement, but thought I would pass it along.

d

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Klepper T9
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Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:42 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 602
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Sorry no link. I'm surprised they're not available in the US. 6 metres is the longest available - sections of it make a great boom for a Hobie Adventure Island sailed in monohull mode with a 57 sg ft sail :D

Rigging? Stays? Shrouds? Don't you swear ar me! :D I'm planning of having a free standing mast. This shouldn't be an issue with a mast over 1" in diameter with the mast foot on the keel, and the flex will help spill gusts. The sail will probably only end up being 14 sq ft or so I imagine

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:45 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
siravingmon wrote:
Sorry no link. I'm surprised they're not available in the US. 6 metres is the longest available - sections of it make a great boom for a Hobie Adventure Island sailed in monohull mode with a 57 sg ft sail :D

Rigging? Stays? Shrouds? Don't you swear ar me! :D I'm planning of having a free standing mast. This shouldn't be an issue with a mast over 1" in diameter with the mast foot on the keel, and the flex will help spill gusts. The sail will probably only end up being 14 sq ft or so I imagine


Fair enough... don't get me started on compact in the U.S.... I just erased two paragraphs of 'grand' diatribe that nobody wants to read, ha.

Would love to know where you found a 6 meter telescoping rod though... that's awesome!

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:01 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
So I actually made a lot of good headway today. The mast seat, my wooden dowel is becoming quite the hardware hangout. I doubt I'll be disconnecting it from the KS mast in the event this whole thing works. This makes the rig longer for stowing, but stowing on the deck seems to be easy, and the sail is much quicker to set up if I don't disconnect the two parts.

So what's new? The upward sail strike is quite successful from the reefed position by running the lifting line through the rearward grommet (that holds the reefing line) in the sail. I can leave it like this but will probably sew a little strap on the bottom of the sail, to run the lifting line through, so that I don't need to tie the reefs before I can strike the sail. It's easy to tie the reefs... but for safety I'd like to be able to wrap the entire sail very quickly, and that can only happen by lifting from the boom. But the system works great. A guided clam cleat will be added to the wood dowel for the lifting line. This way the collapsed sail will be held together when it's pulled out of the mast partner.

I bought a really small double block that ties in place rather than needing to be screwed down. I tied it to the wood dowel and it holds the halyard and originally the reefing line... Since the reefing line will be getting a clam cleat all I really need now is a single block for the halyard. So for the moment the halyard runs out to the end of the Klepper leeboard and is held in place by a clam cleat intended for the Klepper jib. A clam cleat on the dowel could probably work for the halyard as well... but I like having the release a little closer to home... we'll see.

When I was at the shop today I asked about a Harken main sheet block I bought a while ago. I've never been able to rig it properly. The sales guy looked at me as if I had a mental disability and then explained the rigging. All this time I'd been trying to use the thing upside down! In my defense, the things definitely looks upsides down when it's right side up. A long story to say that when I got home I rigged it up and it works great, and I've got my main sheet sorted out now.

Image
INCORRECT: The clam pictured here is upside down... the block is right side up. More on this later...

I found a couple stainless clips for my stays and used some spare line to extend the KS shroud lines by about a foot on each side. I incorporated a slide tensioner to tighten them up and they seem to work great with the MK1 D-rings (with underlying frame clips).

I sat in the boat, in my yard today, and realized that with the seat properly adjusted in the boat I can reach the mast and remove the rig without it falling on my head. Using the paddle to lift the bungees on the deck I can slide the reefed sail under the bungees. I rigged and struck the sail several times and think I should be able to do it on the water. I'll need to do a test and see if the reefed package floats...

With the sail upright in the mast partner but reefed, paddling shouldn't be inhibited at all... providing the lee board is removed. Mast and stays are plenty forward and out of the way.

Not thrilled about using the Klepper lee board rig simply because of the size for stowing, but it will do for the sea trial and it's currently holding my main sheet block. If the sail rigged in this manner works as well as I hope, I'll move forward with my plan for a 'tethered-side swappable' lee board.

Hope to hit the water this week with a GoPro on board. Fingers crossed.

I keep going back and forth as to whether or not this is all worth it. At least it's fun.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:01 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 804
Location: atlanta, georgia
Dennis,

Thanks for sharing all this, it looks like a lot of work has gone into your custom approach with the kayaksailor. Have you thought about the possibility of fabricating a way to mount the rig on a mast, similar to your dowel, that would allow us to plug-and-play whilst leaving the rig intact? Maybe allowing for a rotation by 90 degrees of the rig on the mast in a horizontal plane to move the rig out of the way for paddling? Easier done than said, right?

Thanks!

g

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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:24 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Greg if I'm understanding you correctly you're thinking of an alternative to Gerald's mounting bracket?

I think that's a pretty good idea. One of the key elements, which I'm seeing with my conversion, is a separate lee board arrangement. A really simple one that can be easily stowed (and maybe allow the board to double as a table or something). With a separate leeboard system you could decide whether to use your paddle or set up the lee board for a simple sail. That would be a nice option.

It's hard to beat the system that David designed. It raises and lowers quickly and efficiently and has all the hardware for sail control built in. It's just a little too bulky for paddling on the Klepper style boats... because of the way we mount it. Gerald's design is actually really good for simple Klepper mounting. It's going to be hard to beat.

But, if we were to redesign the mount, I think we'd want to streamline the KS down to the track and sail alone (with sail controls). Using the D-rings on the boat for the shrouds. Again, a separate removable leeboard would be a huge player. Because it's the whole lee board thing that causes problems with the paddling and stowing in the first place. Right?

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:03 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Geez you guys are so BORING!

I don't get no help from anyone here? Sheesh.

Ok, a specific question...

I have cut out a leeboard from a piece of scrap plywood (and it's a really crappy piece of wood as well - paint on it, and lots of drill holes but none all the way through). Limited to the size of this scrap (I should really remove the 's' there) I cut an elongated oval that is just a little shorter than the Klepper lee board, about 3 inches shorter if I had to guess. The idea here is simplicity. I would like to have a purely line suspended leeboard here but I can't think of how to do that.

What I do know is that I will drill a hold in the leading edge of the leeboard to connect a line to. This hole will be about a third of the way down from the top of the leeboard and the line will be used to adjust the boards (forward/back) angle. The line will run through this hole up to the mast and I'm guessing the line will be adjustable with a line tensioner of some sort. So that will hold the 'pitch' angle. But how do I hold the 'roll angle?' (i.e. side to side?)

The easiest solution is a bar across the coaming to hold the lee board. I'm thinking a round dowel. The lee board will be slotted so that it can be dropped on and taken off easily. The board will switch from side to side with the control line maintaining the angle. The dowel could be notched to help hold the board in place but I'm not sure this will be necessary...

But, I don't want the dowel! I want to hang the board... somehow, from the coaming without a cross bar. Help me out here guys. It's a leeboard. The pressure of the water on the boats lee side should keep it against the boat when making way. The line going to the mast will help keep it in position a little... but I'm pretty sure I need that upper pivot point somehow. Maybe a short dowel that can flip from side to side? But how...

The idea here is that when not in use the leeboard slides under the deck bungees on one side, sail on the other.

I'll be anxiously awaiting the flurry of responses.

Thanks,

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:23 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 2:00 am
Posts: 60
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Dennis,
Here's my flurry. We are members of a folding kayak forum. We are therefore all boring.

I thought that a rope from mast to the top center of the leeboard may be all you need. The friction between board and gunnel may be enough to keep the board from sliding backwards or up and a precise rope length keeps the board at vertical in the other dimension. Simple to test it anyway.

And keep up the good work, and the justified mild abuse.

Roberto.

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2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:18 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 602
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Make 2 holes in the canvas deck with eyelets for through bolts so you can clamp the lee board support to the side/underside of the gunwale. Use a soldering iron to stop the canvas fraying around the holes, assuming the deck is synthetic. Otherwise spend hours sewing intricate edging for the holes :)

Then drill 2 more holes in the deck on the other side of the kayak just in case you change your mind about which side you want the lee board on :-)

Then post pictures so the purists can wail and gnash their teeth :D :D

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


Last edited by siravingmon on Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:35 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 804
Location: atlanta, georgia
Dennis,

Couple of thoughts...
Have you considered a fixed daggerboard on each ama?
What about a deployable daggerboard like Careen's? http://www.careen.eu/#/EN/Centerboard/illustrations This would avoid the dowel/aka and allow you to use the traveler as the only cross-gunnel member
I have tried to envision a reversible aka/ama but any design I come up with would get tangled up with your sheets.
Keep those innovations coming, I really appreciate your creativity.

g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:02 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Ah, life exists here after all!

'Here's my flurry. We are members of a folding kayak forum. We are therefore all boring.'

Roberto

That's hilarious man. Nice to see you back. I was thinking about you today while trying to decide which boat to take out next week...

Simon... I've got my 'eyes' on you... an No..., your idea will not be attempted on my new boat... sheesh, way too much work. Ha. However, your comment made me consider the use of magnets...

Greg, it's funny that you mention this because I was following this very thought pattern; thinking about using my old wooden Klepper paddles with the BSD amas, which could be screwed on while out on the water... but, the BSD system is too solid in it's own right and the mounting board Mark made for me solves most of the BSD issues... with the exception of taking up so much space on the MK1. Were I to do a serious journey like you do I would take that entire BSD rig and use the outriggers as designed (if I felt I needed them). I'd be in the AII and there'd be plenty of room, so why not?

My goal here is to completely eliminate the aka/ama while using the KS sail... and possibly the BSD sail. Perhaps open water will dictate otherwise... but this is the idea for now.

I discovered a neat thing yesterday. I rigged the BSD sail with an abbreviated control board, and when I dropped the sail I realized I could slide it's storage bag over the sail while it was still on the mast! Then, I could take the three top sections of mast off and slide them easily into the bag as well - with the lowest section of mast still in the mast partner holding the sail and remaining mast pieces in the storage bag. The bag could then be swiveled onto the forward bow and out of the way. A block and a line running from the bow back to the cockpit could connect to the end of the bag and secure it on the fore deck for paddling. A slightly modified bag that had 'ear flaps' could wrap and snap around the mast. You hearing this Roberto? The best part is that none of the lines had to be taken off. Of course some care is required when putting the mast back up... but doing this on the water is going to be a 'cautious' adventure in any event. Something to think about for all you BSD'ers and wanna BSD'ers.

Onward and windward...

Experimented with two lines yesterday and as Greg determined... it was a cluster duck of lines wanting to cross one another.

Image

So today I brought it down to one single line... looped at the top then running out through the leeboard positioning hole...:

Image

Less issue if the adjustment line is tied behind the sheets etc.

However, after staring at this for a while I realized that a hook may be the simplest way to connect the leeboard to the adjusting line. When not in use the hook hangs into the cockpit. When the leeboard moves to the other side the hook is grabbed, placed through the hole on the board, and dropped over the side... done. As a matter of fact I believe the leeboard itself could hang from a well designed hook clipped to the coaming. Whether the board would hang from line or a hole will probably be determined by the quality of the hook.

Really hoping to get out this week. If I do I hope to play with as much of this stuff as possible. As a start I will use the Klepper leeboard rig to test the KS sail. Then possibly give the BSD a whirl using the Klepper leeboards. Then I might try hanging the 'lined' board from the Klepper crossbar just to see if the hanging leeboard theory comes even close to working.

Stay tuned and thanks for the FLURRY!

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:01 am 
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Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 2:00 am
Posts: 60
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Dennis,
I hear you. I do like the bag over the sail idea, especially for keeping UV damage to a minimum. It's a good secure on deck storage solution for sail and mast sections. I'll give it a try in our Spring.
And your photos help make it very clear what your doing with the leeboard. I wasn't sure before.

Roberto

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2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:26 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Here are some pics of the BSD rigged and stowed. The control board is still in development stage and I think I might just put the main halyard and downhaul on the mast itself. This is what BSD recommends I believe... so why not ? Then I could have the main sheet on the leeboard cross-bar. If the lined leeboard works I can connect the main sheet to the deck or coaming... and no boards at all. Wouldn't that be amazing.

Weather's been crappy or perfect... i.e. no wind. So no sailing yet. Not sure which combo I'll try first, Kayaksailor or BSD, maybe I'll let the day dictate that.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Yes, the gray smudges on the foam is rubber from the T9...

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:29 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Happy 4th of July everyone. Even if you're not celebrating...

I tried the adapted KS rig yesterday with the modified control board pictured above and the hanging leeboard. All a major success.

Very light wind with intermittent gusts. Got moving pretty quick a couple of times but pretty slow sailing for the most past.

The sail in it's alternative mount worked perfectly. Reefing was no issue, just like normal and the lined sail strike worked without issue. It was easier to remove the sail from the mast partner than I had guessed and using the canoe paddle as a guide sliding the entire rig under the front bungee was a no brainer. She set up again just as easy taking maybe 5 minutes depending on how confused the shroud lines became.

The control board held the main sheet Harken very nicely but the downhaul and the main halyard could easily be moved to mast itself. In other words, losing the control board would be very simple.

With the mast up paddling was no real issue as the mast was far enough forward not to hinder the stroke. The stays/shrouds come close to being in the way, but they're not. But of course the beauty was being able to fold it up and take in down in a matter of moments and have a completely clear deck again... Amazingly nice actually.

The real winner of the day though was the hanging leeboard. It worked great and ended up being super simple.

I hung it from the coaming clips for rib #4 by a line going through the two holes at the top of the board. Super easy to switch from side to side. The positioning line wrapped around the mast and clipped onto a loop I tied at the leading edge of the board. The positioning line had a c-clip arrangement on each side so I could clip that first before hanging. This worked OK but needs better clips and adjustability.

What was fascinating was that the board floats off to the side of the boat... this didn't seem to promising at first... but as soon as I started moving the board dove down and hugged the side of the boat like it was bolted on. As soon as the sail let off the upwind tack the board would let go. Very interesting and possibly a telltale of some sort... I abandoned the positioning lines after about an hour and never went back to them. I did adjust the height of the board as the lower it hung the more angled it became under the boat. Riding a little higher seemed to hold it a little more vertical along the hull.

So the hanging leeboard seems entirely adequate for any upwind sailing. Going downwind it's not needed and will just float alongside. I'm not sure what is lost by not having a fixed leeboard for the downwind direction. The leeboard tucks easily under the front bungee as well, and completely out of the way.

Overall very successful and I was reminded at how mellow a sail the KS is. It was also nice to see the sail operating much more efficiently and standing straight under load instead of flexing like crazy from the original Klepper mounting board.

I need to try her in heavy winds but I think this is a keeper system.

If there's one issue it's that the shrouds may fall a little further back than on the original which could restrict dropping all the wind in a very gusty situation. Also, the upwards striking system needs to be tested in a very strong wind. It works well and once rigged more permanently it should work extremely fast and all the way from the bottom without the need to reef first.

This rig works. For a nice long outing in a solo boat this is a great way to carry the sail and still have all the qualities of an unencumbered paddling boat.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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