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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:25 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
Dang guys!

Tim have you ever heard of pitch poling!? I don't think my sail would be up any longer in the conditions my mind envisions in your last post. Ha. Then again I can't imagine being able to drop the sail in that scenario either... of course I am envisioning a memory that we wouldn't take our kayaks into under sail... but, conditions change. Even in a relatively safe environment I can't imagine having an inverted BSD rig in the water with those waves coming in... I just envision the mast hitting bottom before the rig is righted and... well you get the picture. Gee, I don't sound too defeatist do I, ha.

I've got to go outside right now and make some decisions on what to take with me on vacation... this discussion is not making that any easier.

Greg I remember your Florida sailing journeys and your description of these conditions. I have to agree, there are times when the Klepper rudder is not up to the task at hand. Greg you were working the foot pedals at the same time as the paddle right? Didn't you have a short segment of video from somewhere in there?

d

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:45 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 158
Well, Dennis, I'm certainly no Water Triber, but I do enjoy a windy day. In May, at the Sails Angels gathering of mostly-BSD sailors, we had quite the harrowing sail one day.

GrnMtns of this forum suggested a trip from the campground on the Virginia side of Pocomoke Sound, across the Sound to the north, and up Pocomoke River to Pocomoke City. I believe nine boats departed, several of them folders. Ann and I were in our Yukons, without spray decks. Without modification the Folbot spray deck is incompatible with a BSD rig. I believe all skippers had sails fully reefed. I take that back. A couple new to our group in a hardshell tandem may have been unable to fully reef.

Wind was blowing 20-25 knots from the S-SW. The tide was coming out of the Pocomoke River, opposing the wind. This created steep waves of 2-3 feet or so. Some people tacked back and forth as we approached the river mouth, sliding down the waves at a diagonal. I mostly went straight on, spilling wind at each trough until my bow emerged from beneath the next wave. Several times I had water over the bow up to the cockpit. Beneath the decks were large flotation bags. I had lowered the sail to just above the crosstube.

A Kruger Seawind skippered by a very experienced sailor went bare-pole. I can't remember if his near-broach came before or after he doused canvas. Another experienced sailor (he owns a kevlar tandem with three Balogh masts and custom amas) in a large-cockpit no-bulkheads plastic boat escaped into a quiet area after a while to bail before continuing. I pumped a few times.

Miraculously, we all survived to the first bend in the river where we found quiet water. Most of us agreed that we should have stayed at the campground. Should one of our group have capsized or gone overboard, assistance would have been most difficult to provide. Continuing on, all boats save one arrived in Pocomoke City for pizza. One skipper dropped out along the river due to fatigue.

I don't know that I would want to do that again, but it sure was thrilling.

BTW, the sailor in the large-cockpit plastic boat was curious about our Yukons, as he travels the country in a Sprinter-type van conversion and was tired of tugging a kayak trailer. I loaned him my Yukon for a sail on Pocomoke Sound. Immediately after the gathering he bought one for himself on Craigslist.

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Ann and me
Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:54 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
Wow Tim that's quite an adventure.

So I'm assuming everyone was using the BSD outrigger system in this weather? When you say the one boat went 'bare pole' I assume that means the sail was completely dropped. What do you guys do when you drop the sail like that? Do you wrap it with line, cover it with the bag, just curious. So when the sail is dropped like that it's back to paddling into that weather with the outriggers still out? Man that sounds like a real chore. But as you say, I'm sure it was one for the memory banks.

Must be pretty fun to adventure with a group of folks that are all using the same sail rig. I'll have to keep an eye out for the Sails Angels events. I have yet to have the opportunity to sail with anyone else.

d

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Klepper T9
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Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:02 am 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 158
Everyone was using BSD rigs with outriggers, though sail size varied. I'm not sure how the others deal with a dropped sail. I swing mine to the foredeck, holding it down with a bungee hooked to the perimeter line. I'll put the sail in the bag first sometimes.

None of us sails without outriggers. When the skipper of the Kruger boat dropped his sail he still had his outriggers installed.

We were headed downwind, so even without sail little paddling would have been required.

The kayak sailing group membership is quite fluid. We are loosely organized and meet four times a year: Cupsuptic Lake Park & Campground ME end of July, Cedar Island NC early October, Flamingo campground Everglades NP end of January (not specifically a sailing event--mixed sailors and paddlers, emphasis on Folbots and other folders), Tall Pines Harbor Campground Sanford VA early May. You can look at Ann's post under Special Events for info on the Flamingo Flotilla. Contact GrnMtns for info on Cupsuptic. For Cedar Island and Tall Pines, send me a PM.

We love to see everyone's modifications. Much equipment discussion takes place. BSD owner David Valverde typically attends Tall Pines and Cedar Island. He and GrnMtns have spare parts and bring demo boats. Both have performed installs and mods on site by prior arrangement. GrnMtns reps for BSD and Longhaul, which can be helpful.

While most attendees use BSD rigs, we see Folbot rigs and hybrids. A couple of skippers use jibs. No Klepper sail rigs, though I would like to see one in action. Same goes for Kayaksailor. We had a couple of beginning sailors at Tall Pines this year. GrnMtns and others, including Ann, have a great deal of kayak sailing experience.

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Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:46 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
Got it. I missed the downwind aspect in your original story.

I think the BSD is a lot more efficient than the Klepper rig, but man is it tall. I have a 36 HP and have never really had it out on open waters. So I've only used it with the outriggers once I think. Yes, I've gone over many times.

Have you ever seen a BSD rig flip over? What happens? I know that without outriggers the BSD mast floats and will keep the boat from going turtle. I think the Klepper mast takes on water when it capsizes, and then pulls the boat over into the inverted position. I'm thinking I'd like to spray some foam into the mast sections and see if that corrects this unfortunate action. Any ideas on how this might be done? But I'm meandering... I am really curious what happens when a BSD rig goes over.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:22 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 158
I do not recall seeing a Balogh rigged boat capsize. I know I have seen a video demonstrating how to right a capsized GII with a Balogh rig. When I was looking for it just now I came across a video entitled "Capsize This" featuring one Dennis Lee.

Since I have buried an ama several times in strong wind I'm convinced that a capsize could happen. If the aka breaks surely the boat would capsize. Which is why I had David Valverde of BSD double the akas and crosstube, his idea not mine. He inserted a smaller diameter tube into the existing crosstube, and shorter lengths of tubing inside the ends of the akas near the crosstube interface. He claims that the aka-crosstube joint is a common break point under extreme conditions.

The burying ama stresses the aka and crosstube. It limits my ability to sail close hauled in strong wind. I would like a larger ama with more buoyancy.

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Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
Hardshells x6


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:29 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
RangerTim wrote:
The burying ama stresses the aka and crosstube. It limits my ability to sail close hauled in strong wind. I would like a larger ama with more buoyancy.


I thought about this a little and I'm not sure this is the correct approach. I'm sure it will work to a point, but you are really demanding a lot from your gear in these situations. Even if you beef up the amas and aka, how much can the coaming on your boat take?

To me, the better solution is to raise the aka and amas so that the boat can actually be sailed aggressively and counter balanced by the crews weight. The boat becomes far more stable at speed than it is at rest. Maintaining a counter balance to the wind in the sail is very easy and really quite comfortable providing you have a comfortable way to sit on the edge of the coaming and gunnel (gunwale) of your boat.

An elevated aka/ama would allow this to be done very easily and if catastrophe strikes the ama drops to save the day. Almost all capsizes are a result of a sudden change in the current situation. With experience we get a sense of when this 'might' occur. With a little foresight the skipper can be ready to drop the wind from the sail when a sudden gust hits or stalls. It's often hard to catch this quick enough to save a capsize from occurring if you do not have outriggers. But, with an elevated outrigger you have an extra few moments when the ama hits the water to let the sheets fly and drop that wind. This is of course theory on my part but I'm fairly confident it would work... mainly from seeing what you guys demand of these outriggers on a regular basis.

The real beauty is that practically all the stress would be alleviated from your rig sailing this way, and frankly I think it's more fun.

I'd love to do some cutting on my BSD aka and try some things but it's just too expensive if I make a mistake. I'm half heartedly looking for a wood dowel that will fit the amas so I can experiment a little with an adjustable system, but who's got the time?

David has a great product here, but it disappoints me a little that there isn't any advancement happening with the gear... like creating and adjustable angled aka, or adding a jib system to what we already have - I'd love that. The BSD mast, since it has no stays, is actually the perfect platform for a Bermuda type sail that could be reefed by rolling it up on the mast. How perfect would that be? You could literally roll it up to nothing...

Anyway, I strongly suggest you take your GII out on a nice lake and give her a sail without the outriggers just to get a sense of how simple the counter leaning is. You'll move faster with less effort and experience zero stress on the rig compared to dragging those amas through the water. Then maybe we can put our heads together with David and come up with an adjustable aka system for BSD. That would be heaven.

If you decide to give it a try give me a shout and I'll suggest a couple things that may help stave off a capsize. ha.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:21 am 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 158
One day on warm water I'll give ama-less sailing a try.

I have seen a canoe sailing video where the akas were of laminate wood. At the point analogous to where the Balogh aka attaches to the crosstube, the wood sweeps up. Thus the boat heels some before the ama touches water. I have mentioned this to David. He believes that would be too difficult to engineer.

I do not blame him a bit for not wanting to put time, effort, and money into R&D. What with the number of kayak shops and manufacturers that have disappeared or repurposed over the years, I'm thrilled that he is still in business.

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Ann and me
Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
Hardshells x6


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:12 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 441
You likely both already know this (if so, apologies for posting, but perhaps it will be helpful to others), but what you are both describing is essentially like the Solway Dory mini-outrigger system, much used by British Open Canoe Sailors. Have a look at http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/products/sa ... utriggers/
Or the ocsg.org.uk site or their facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/152444938788/?fref=nf
Of course, these aren't the sorts of things you want to be paying for shipping across the Atlantic, but Dave Stubbs of Solway Dory is a real enthusiast and a very helpful fellow and would surely give you necessary dimensions/details if you wanted to have a go at making your own.

I have just acquired second hand what I think is odds and ends of the Careen sailing system. Or perhaps the outriggers are Careen and the sail is Klepper. I seem to be missing the crucial part for mounting the outriggers, though it may reappear in the house I acquired it from as we gradually clear it. The sail area looks rather large for sailing without outriggers, but I'm nevertheless having a go at adapting the mast step on the Klepper Aeirus II (Classic) to receive the mast. The current hole is square, but the mast I've acquired is a tear drop shape and a few mm too long to fit in the square hole. I'll try and post some photos if I succeed in getting it set up.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:53 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 158
Yes, idc, Solway Dory is what I had seen. Now, if I could get something like that in a three piece beam and inflatable amas I'll be happy. The Solway system as it is would be too bulky for the available space in my vehicle.

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Ann and me
Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
Hardshells x6


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:38 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
True true true Tim. You're right, it's too much to expect David to put much more into this... unfortunately.

Ian thanks for those links, that's exactly what I was thinking of. That Careen stuff looks pretty nice. You may find some tips and insight about what you have by carefully scouring their website. There are a lot of interesting pictures or new and older gear on their website. I always liked the way they attached the amas to the paddles in one of the early iterations. Such a simple solution.

Did Careen go out of business? I can't find their website anymore. All Careen images lead back to the Klepper site.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:29 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1396
Location: South Salem, NY
I rode some unexpectedly large waves this summer on a beach inlet in Maine. Unfortunately my camera wasn't running and my pants needed cleaning afterwards, hahaha.

I was in my MK1 and it was all I could do to keep the following waves from rolling me over. With my feet on an ineffective rudder (trying to keep it straight) I just paddled like a madman until I was out of the action zone. The waves weren't that big, maybe 3 feet at first, and after surfing through about three or possibly four troughs, I was out of it. It's tough to say how long I could have kept that up. But, I can't imagine the hand tiller managing the rudder in this type of following sea unless speed was greater than the wave... and I don't mean having the ability to steer, but just keeping it facing backwards and not slamming sideways with the power of the water. It's hard to imagine what the scenario would have been like with the sail up.

On the other hand, if properly outfitted, one could probably learn to cope with this type of surf and build up to actually having some fun with it. But I'm not sure that's ever going to be part of my knowledge base.

I sailed in a following sea on Lake Champlain a few years ago and the rudder was pushed perpendicular to the boat several times while trying to use the hand tiller. So much so that the rudder would jam in a 90º orientation to the boat. Twice I had to climb out over the stern to fix it. That was sailing the Kayaksailer. I even tried sailing upwind to fix the rudder and even that didn't work.

Bottom line for me is that sailing in rougher conditions doesn't seem that fun unless you can work up to it. It seems to me that if you aren't sitting on the coaming because you have outriggers, you can keep the foot tiller handy for rougher conditions and use the hand tiller when cruise control is enabled. Or, like Greg described, maybe just get the rudder out of the water and use a paddle. That didn't sound like fun either though.

Greg, are you changing your sailing arrangement? I wish I could come up with an outrigger solution that allows the boat to heel (sp) a bit.

Happy New Year guys!

d

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Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:24 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 158
In a follwing sea, using my current hand tiller is not an option. I cannot overcome the force. I must use the foot control. The Folbot Big D rudder (produced from about 2000 to 2007 or so) has not yet forced me to spill wind or failed to keep me from broaching in a following sea.

Ann used to have a newer Folbot GII, manufactured after the switch from aluminum to plastic gudgeons. The rudder post drops through holes in two plastic tabs. In following seas those tabs would distort. The rudder blade would twist toward horizontal, resulting in a loss of control. Now neither of us will sail a Folbot with a plastic gudgeon.

While the Klepper rudder on my A1 has not failed me in a following sea, I do not have the confidence that it won't so I do not push it. It points aft rather than down. It has given me an uneasy feeling in moderate conditions. GBellware has a nice mod for his Quattro rudder.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:44 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 811
Location: atlanta, georgia
"Greg, are you changing your sailing arrangement? I wish I could come up with an outrigger solution that allows the boat to heel (sp) a bit."

Yep, new rudder. I will sail with it tomorrow, I fabricated it from aluminum plate and I made it about 25% longer than a stock Klepper (new model, not the old kidney-shaped one) and I added some area forward of the pivot point so that the effort will be much lighter. Hopefully I did not add too much...I went as far as the folks at Balogh think is the limit: 20% of total surface area of the blade is forward of the pivot point. If it works I will post pics. If it doesn't well, back to the drawing board.

Hope all is well with you Dennis,

g

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1990's A1 Expedition
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:36 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1077
Location: isles of scilly UK
The original question seems to be ,how to paddle when the sail is in the way. If I am correct in this we have come a long way from the question. So to get back to it, I found to paddle when the sail is in the way I use a canoe paddle so no blade is in the air fouling the sail. As regards the old Klepper rudder in the second edition of COMPLETE FOLDING KAYAKER by RALPH DIAZ on pages 194/195 there are details about reversing the old stock rudder so it hangs more vertical. Whilst I did this on both my A2s I have never really proved it to be better.


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