Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

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MOLamb
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Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by MOLamb »

Well we finally made it to the lake, which just opened for the season out here in Jackson. Done with the tinkering, time to sail.

The few hours we spent on the lake the wind varied from dead calm to 10-15 knots. Paddling with all the gear was just fine as we chased the fluky wind early on. Once the breeze filled in and she came to life, the rig felt solid and capable when I expected it to feel somewhat fragile and twitchy.. Ghosting along in the lighter wind was entirely enjoyable. It doesn’t take much wind to move this rig. We were able to tack through 90 degrees without need for a paddle, Just some backwinding of the forward sail was sufficient to bring us through the wind. As the wind picked up my daughter moved up to the hiking board and was mostly successful in keeping the lee ama out of the water. Boatspeed was brisk, even felt a little surfy in the gusts. I won’t guess our speed, being that low in the water, but it was @%&$ fun! We stayed mostly dry, owing partly to the spray shield up on the bow, oar storage, and hiking board. All of these bits a pieces seem to act well together to keep water in the outside if the boat. The helm was fully balanced on all points of sail and all wind conditions. The Long Haul balanced rudder is definitely a winner. Tacking in the higher breeze was not as effortless as it was when it was blowing below 10 knots. i needed a little paddle to get us around. Need to play around with different tactics here.

The BSD rig is efficient as wind speed translates directly to forward momentum -at least in the conditions we were in. The sails spill wind easily up high which means less stress overall. Even when things turned a little gusty I didn’t feel the need to constantly be on the sheets. If here had been a little more wind i sensed that things would change fairly quickly. At a steady 15 knots I would have no problem fully reefing both sails as things get gusty here very fast and you could easily see mid to upper 20’s in the blink of an eye. i would not want to be surprised by a 30 knot gust with full sails up. Not sure I want to test my 70 year old frame that way.

Next upgrade on the list will be to add some single handing hardware. It just makes more sense for the helmsman to have control of both sheets, rather than calling for adjustments.

In summary :D

Mark
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Klepper Aerius II Schooner -1950’s
Jackson, WY
Allied Seawind Cutter 32’ 1978
Pender Island, Canada

JohnSand
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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by JohnSand »

Great, thanks!
I just rigged up my recently acquired Folbot Super in the back yard. The rig seems pretty sound, but the homemade sail is the worst I've ever seen. It is cotton, and may have been good at one time, but now is badly stretched. I'll report again when I make a new sail and test on the water.

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gbellware
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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by gbellware »

Good on you, Mark, sounds like you had a great shakedown sail with your new rig. Looks like you has some decent wind and fairly flat water to get the feel of the schooner, and so cool that your rig balanced out in those conditions. And you have probably already figured out that the weight of a passenger is a good thing for sailing these rigs.
And yes, reefing is a good idea, I generally go 1 reef above 12mph wind and 2 above 16. It took me some while to believe that less is more in big winds, but I am a convert!
Single handed is easy, but with two on board all you will have to do is move the control sheet on your front sail to the back of the boom, no big deal. Some of us run a mast mounted swivel cam cleat to control either or both sheets. There is also a fellow in our sailing group who runs a triple masted schooner (Three Amigos) with single sheet control. The configurations are limited only by your imagination, and it seems that you have plenty of that!
BTW, if you go down the road of adding mast-mounted controls you may want, in an abundance of caution, to not drill the mast. Rather, you can use some prefab aluminum split collars to accept any controls you want to attach.
Fair winds and following seas,
g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Kleppers, A1 Expedition and carbon Quattro
Easy Riders, 18.6 and 17
Lots of BSD sails
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor

MOLamb
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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by MOLamb »

It’s a good windward shore with added benefit that the wind is 100% predictable here. Nothing till 10am then building to max at around 1pm. Stays max till about 5 or 6 then dies within a couple of hours. The great thing about this location on the lake is very little fetch so wave action is low even with considerable wind. I’m liking it.

Very happy with the LH control boards. As a multi use platform you can mock up configurations and customize all sorts of fun things. I don’t see any need to mount hardware anywhere else. So yeah for the forward sail I’ll just switch to end boom sheeting to another fairlead and cam cleat adjacent the main on the center board, which also doubles as a chillin/hiking seat.

On the subject of reefing it seems to me there is heightened need for close attention. Not much margin on this boat before things can bend and break. As you say, over canvassed boats don’t sail well so reefing early is always the best way to go. I would agree with 12mph.

Appreciate all the suggestions. Would love to see the three amigos! Is there a photo of her somewhere here?
Klepper Aerius II Schooner -1950’s
Jackson, WY
Allied Seawind Cutter 32’ 1978
Pender Island, Canada

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gbellware
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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by gbellware »

I will get some pics from the group, including the Three Amigos, they are posted on Facebook but I am a curmudgeon and refuse to use "the" Facebook but I will get them just the same. As far as the limits of the rig go...you might be surprised. I assume you have a newer version of the BSD sail and aka? Dave Valverde, the owner of BSD, has built the equipment to much higher specs/strength than the original rigs...the tubes are doubled and tripled in some cases. I have sailed with several feet of mast deflection and never had a failure. Not saying it can't happen, just sayin'.
In the meantime, this is my old Klepper rig... https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Kleppers, A1 Expedition and carbon Quattro
Easy Riders, 18.6 and 17
Lots of BSD sails
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor

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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by RangerTim »

Nice work, Mark. Part of me would love to have the benefits of a schooner rig. One day, maybe

You are right about being at the ready for changes in wind. I am always prepared to work the sheet (I rarely cleat unless close-hauled) and/or the rudder to keep the mast from bending too much and keep the ama seam above the water most of the time.

The mast and akas are really toothpicks compared to a regular sailboat with shrouds and stays. Still, they can bend quite a bit without breaking. I know because I have watched them bend on Greg's rig. I believe the bending of one's mast/akas appears less dramatic viewed from one's own cockpit.

Waves will add another level of excitement. When beam reaching on a breezy day with fetch, a wave will sometimes lift the leeward ama, tilting the windward ama downward to be overwashed broadside by the next wave. Imagine surfing in your Klepper while broad reaching!! Even with my slow Folbots and a single sail I can see 7+ knots for a couple of seconds.

Enjoy!
Ann and me
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MOLamb
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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by MOLamb »

I like your suggestion RangerTim to keep ama seam above the water. Will see how that equates to windspeed on my unreefed rig.

I can definitely see how wave action would add another complexity. When going upwind and heading off 45 degrees either direction to oncoming waves, which is a normal good seamanship thing to do, this would cause the windward ama to be hit first by waves causing the leeward ama (which is already under pressure) to dive. Same thing on a nice lake with a big boat wake. That’s an eye opener. So what do you guys do? Let up on the sheets before the big one hits?

Yes, G, it’s a newer BSD rig with the double tubing that goes across the mounting points. On my Long Haul mounting there is also a third layer of tubing at the mounting points. That just means it’s more likely to break somewhere else! Actually this added beefiness can only be a good thing and means to me that David is supporting the natural evolution of the design. I like your control board and can appreciate the thought that must have gone into it. I’m now waiting on my first Harken order!

Also I can’t post without a photo. So here’s one from yesterday. Cheers!
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Klepper Aerius II Schooner -1950’s
Jackson, WY
Allied Seawind Cutter 32’ 1978
Pender Island, Canada

DLee
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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by DLee »

'Three Amigos' that is hilarious!

Haven't sailed in ages. Might try and get out tomorrow. Thanks for the inspiration.

d
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
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GrnMtns
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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by GrnMtns »

Three Amigo last year in Maine :~)
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Best,
Jon

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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by DLee »

Wow! That's amazing. A little surprised by the leeboard placement there... but not really. Fascinating. Thanks for the pic. Think I'd be fine with Mark's schooner. lol.
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by john allsop »

This photo makes us all wonder why we just sit around as time goes by. Often finding other things we think we have to do instead. The lee board position is about right, a few inches behind the sail but for some unknown reason a lot of people put it on the other side. Just put the Yukon together with the Pacific Action and now it looks like rain is on the way.

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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by MOLamb »

Does the Three Amigos ever manage to shake out those reefs? Very curious about the amas. Looks like there are two aka attachments. Are they custom? I was joking with Mark at Long Haul that he should consider making some longer custom amas using the same skin on frame technology as the big boats and create a true trimaran. This would open up all kinds of possibilities like trampolines and added payload. But you know what they say about opinions..

So here’s the latest addition to my sailing operation. I’m not a big fan of the whole folding/assembly part of the program because I’m less likely to use the boat. Now I keep the whole thing assembled and in the garage ready to go at the drop of a hat. I also built a cradle for my daughters kayak and attachments for 3 bikes. When the season is over the frame with be hung from the ceiling in my living room so I can look at it all winter :)
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Klepper Aerius II Schooner -1950’s
Jackson, WY
Allied Seawind Cutter 32’ 1978
Pender Island, Canada

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gbellware
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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by gbellware »

Re: Three Amigos
The fellow who rigged and who sails that schooner did a really nice job setting her up. Yes, the amas are custom inflatables, they started off life as the hulls of a mini-river raft. Brad, the owner of the boat, sometimes drops a second leeboard but mostly just sails with the one you see. He controls the three sails with a single sheet. How does she sail? In wind above 12 knots or so she heads for the beach. But below 12 knots she will outsail anything else on the water. I don't recall the exact length of the boat...19 feet maybe?...but the boat is faster and handles surprisingly well and better than all of our monohulls. It literally flies!
Best,
g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Kleppers, A1 Expedition and carbon Quattro
Easy Riders, 18.6 and 17
Lots of BSD sails
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor

MOLamb
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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by MOLamb »

Very interesting. I'm imagining the pontoons from one of those little solo fishing catamarans. That's a lot of power, I can understand having to head for the beach early! That's the thing with these sailing kayaks and potential for boat speed. If it's blowing 12 on a 19' boat, and you've tuned your triple rig right, what's your boat speed on fastest point of sail? 10? 12? Apparent wind speed becomes much more of an issue earlier on if you catch my drift. And if the big amas are quieter through the water and stronger, I imagine you start worrying about potential for pitchpoling. Very Cool!
Klepper Aerius II Schooner -1950’s
Jackson, WY
Allied Seawind Cutter 32’ 1978
Pender Island, Canada

john allsop
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Posts: 1254
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Re: Klepper / BSD Schooner - Initial Impression

Post by john allsop »

These Russian outriggers might be of interest OOps I can,t see how to add photos, it use to be simple but now we are with a newer provider if that's what it is called I don,t know what to do. My photos are in folders in my computer. Anyway the Russians make quite big inflatable out riggers with two arms. As you can all see I managed to add a photo. Where have the photos gone?

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