How much Rudder travel is needed to TACK?

Moderators: chrstjrn, mje, krudave

Post Reply
Yakadoodle
faltbootemeister
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:52 pm
Location: Newport, R.I.

How much Rudder travel is needed to TACK?

Post by Yakadoodle »

I'm just working on my rudder setup on a Folbot Gll and I'm trying to use a peddle/footbrace combination as shown here.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1set-Aluminum- ... 2749.l2649

The nice thing is that the position is adjustable from the seat if you wanted to change the stretch of your legs and it does provide a solid foot brace for getting a good paddle stroke.
The negative is that I see so far with the "toe" peddle used for the rudder, it does not look to give the rudder enough travel to turn quickly during a tack.

So my question is:
How many degrees of rudder travel are you guys getting with your rudders to move through a tack?

I can get a lot more using a tiller, but my homemade tiller is getting caught on the perimeter lines used for the aft deck being a two piece-the joining segment is catching on the deck lines.
"Yakadoodle" ...I had to come up with some name since Steve already stole my name! :lol:

RangerTim
faltbootemeister
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm

Re: How much Rudder travel is needed to TACK?

Post by RangerTim »

Sending the rudder hard over during a tack usually acts as a brake, stalling the kayak. That said, tacking most kayaks usually requires (or is greatly aided by) paddling through the wind anyway. (Most of my kayak sailing group use a single-blade bent-shaft paddle.) To be honest, if I have enough open water and the wind is not too fierce I may jibe instead of tack because that can be done without paddling.

It appears that you are considering a gas-pedal rudder control system. I have such a system on a non-sailing hard shell kayak and I love it. I would not, however, want to use it on a sailing kayak.

When sailing downwind with a stiff breeze and a quartering sea every kayak I have ever sailed wants to broach, or feels like it wants to broach. I need to work the rudder to counteract the force of the passing waves, which want to push the stern until the boat is broadside.

Working the rudder over and back is repeated with every wave. The force required to keep the boat on course in this situation can be considerable.* I cannot manage it with my hand tiller, which has little mechanical advantage. (I really should work up a longer yoke extension.) I must use my foot control, which has the force of my legs behind it.

I fear that a gas-pedal control system, which relies on extending the toes or the balls of the feet, in addition to possibly lacking enough rudder travel, may lack the necessary power or result in fatigued, cramping muscles.

*This led me to devise a rudder downhaul for my GII. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8474&sid=5e3eee4b3 ... 7fdb95e830
Ann and me
Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
Hardshells x6

User avatar
GrnMtns
forum fanatic
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 10:27 pm
Location: Northern Vermont,USA

Re: How much Rudder travel is needed to TACK?

Post by GrnMtns »

Hi Steve,
I like as much of 40 degrees as I can get, Those gas pedal style I believe are also sold as the "smart track" system. I think if you adjust them well they can give you enough movement. https://www.clcboats.com/shop/products/ ... ystem.html
It was not easy for me to sustain the pressure needed to sail with my toes. So I prefer the older Werner style aluminum slides. In the 90's Folbot had a custom aluminum extrusion to hold their pedals into the ribs before they went to the white starboard pedal/pivot post. I would look for a pair of those.
I have a straight stainless telescoping pole ie. "mop Handle" that I use to steer and it works better than a hinged stick when coupled with the foot pedal lines.
After similar issues with a Greenland II ,the most comfortable for me was to clamp in a small piece of plywood over the floor keelson and go with the Long Haul pedal system. I put a set in an old Folbot Super last year with good results.
Good Luck
Best,
Jon

Klepper A II
Pionier 520 Z
Klepper A 1

Yakadoodle
faltbootemeister
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:52 pm
Location: Newport, R.I.

Re: How much Rudder travel is needed to TACK?

Post by Yakadoodle »

RangerTim wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:25 am
Sending the rudder hard over during a tack usually acts as a brake, stalling the kayak. That said, tacking most kayaks usually requires (or is greatly aided by) paddling through the wind anyway. (Most of my kayak sailing group use a single-blade bent-shaft paddle.) To be honest, if I have enough open water and the wind is not too fierce I may jibe instead of tack because that can be done without paddling.

It appears that you are considering a gas-pedal rudder control system. I have such a system on a non-sailing hard shell kayak and I love it. I would not, however, want to use it on a sailing kayak.

When sailing downwind with a stiff breeze and a quartering sea every kayak I have ever sailed wants to broach, or feels like it wants to broach. I need to work the rudder to counteract the force of the passing waves, which want to push the stern until the boat is broadside.

Working the rudder over and back is repeated with every wave. The force required to keep the boat on course in this situation can be considerable.* I cannot manage it with my hand tiller, which has little mechanical advantage. (I really should work up a longer yoke extension.) I must use my foot control, which has the force of my legs behind it.

I fear that a gas-pedal control system, which relies on extending the toes or the balls of the feet, in addition to possibly lacking enough rudder travel, may lack the necessary power or result in fatigued, cramping muscles.

*This led me to devise a rudder downhaul for my GII. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8474&sid=5e3eee4b3 ... 7fdb95e830
I have already removed the Toe pedal idea as it wasn't giving the travel I wanted or moving the rudder quickly.
Tonight I'll try the sliding pedal track off a Kodiak to see it if it gives me better results.
I had ordered the Long Haul Rudder system, but they did not have one on the shelf to overnight express mail it so I had to cancel it.
I think this toe pedal would work fine for a fishing kayak or hardshell, but for me it's not!

The downhaul for the rudder blade - I have drilled a hole near the leading edge to place a bungee cord it to pull it forward. So far I have it only coming from one side up to the rear deck and I haven't tried it yet, but I'm not fully sold on this placement of it.
Your system looks to be right for the original Gll rudder.
One of the first things I did was to put the large SST washer under the rubber washer. That pretty much is a no-brainer when you first see it.
I cannot imagine using it without one.

Thank you for your info. It is good to learn from your experiences.
"Yakadoodle" ...I had to come up with some name since Steve already stole my name! :lol:

Yakadoodle
faltbootemeister
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:52 pm
Location: Newport, R.I.

Re: How much Rudder travel is needed to TACK?

Post by Yakadoodle »

GrnMtns wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:24 am
Hi Steve,
I like as much of 40 degrees as I can get, Those gas pedal style I believe are also sold as the "smart track" system. I think if you adjust them well they can give you enough movement. https://www.clcboats.com/shop/products/ ... ystem.html
It was not easy for me to sustain the pressure needed to sail with my toes. So I prefer the older Werner style aluminum slides. In the 90's Folbot had a custom aluminum extrusion to hold their pedals into the ribs before they went to the white starboard pedal/pivot post. I would look for a pair of those.
I have a straight stainless telescoping pole ie. "mop Handle" that I use to steer and it works better than a hinged stick when coupled with the foot pedal lines.
After similar issues with a Greenland II ,the most comfortable for me was to clamp in a small piece of plywood over the floor keelson and go with the Long Haul pedal system. I put a set in an old Folbot Super last year with good results.
Good Luck
I might very well do as you have done and go with the floor hinged pedal design in the end if the side track pedals I'm installing tonight do not work as I want.
I really want my feet spread wide the same as I sit. Bringing them close together just doesn't feel natural for my wide butt!
35-40 degrees has felt about right in the past to do the tacking. Anything less is a slow wide turn!
My tiller as it is now is a two pieces of fiberglass reflector poles used to find a driveway at night, the "connection" is a tight fitting fuel hose. The hose clamps are what is making the problem with this idea. It's tight inside the tube without the clamps...but not taking the chance of it coming out by taking the clamps off.
Back to the drawing board!

Edit: Just got off the phone with Long Haul...rudder system on the way...of course as soon as I got off the phone I found out we might be leaving here before the rudder gets here! :roll: Life is fun!
"Yakadoodle" ...I had to come up with some name since Steve already stole my name! :lol:

Post Reply

Return to “Sailing Gear”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users