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 Post subject: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:04 pm 
This might turn into a how not to build a folding wood kayak thread but hopefully it will be useful.

I’m starting with the plans for a PBK 19 and making changes as to how it folds in order to reduce the huge number of bolts and wing nuts used in assembly, I would like to get the assembly time down to 15-20 minutes, this is the first folding kayak I have built so I may do some really stupid things :roll: which hopefully will be easier to fix that with a S&G kayak.

The keel and frames are now complete, I made a few changes to the original plans
1) The original folded with some pieces 63” long, I wanted to reduce this to 54”
2) Originally the keel consisted of 2 stringers joined with ¼” plywood running the length of the keel at the bottom of the boat directly in contact with the canvas, I think this would be very vulnerable to damage so I’ve joined the stringers on the top more like a Klepper, this may not be as strong as the originally design but seems fairly common practice.
3) The stem and stern are no longer part of the keel assembly but slide into it, the idea is to have the stringers permanently attached to the stem/stern and attached them in one operation, this may not be practical we will have to see
4) I’ve got rid of all the bolts and wing nuts by using locking pins and joints, hopefully these will work in practice.

Image

This is were I’m at today more pictures and text can be found here

http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww26 ... g%20Kayak/


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:07 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 616
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Very impressive. You've obviously put a lot of thought and effort into this and I'm looking forward to your review of the finished kayak

_________________
Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:39 pm 
Starting to take shape, the bolts are all temporary they will be replaced with rivets or stainless bolts. I haven't been keeping track but estimate I have 80-100 hours into the project, I doubt if I'm half way yet. Most of the metal work and tricky woodwork is done the next step will be to take it all apart sand and coat with penetrating epoxy, after that I'll start with the rivets and other fastenings.

Image

Image

Image

More pictures can be found here http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww265/NorthernChinook/Folding%20Kayak/


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:29 pm 
It has been slow going for the past month or so, all the woodwork has been coated with penetrating epoxy, sanded and 2 coats of vanish applied. The metal work has now been permanently attached, of course due to the thickness of the epoxy and varnish the was a lot of re aligning and trimming required, maybe oil would have been a better idea.

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All the wood pieces

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Assembled and ready for the skin.

This is the stage of the project I have been dreading, so far I've given up the hope of getting a wrinkle free skin and come to the realization that I'm probably going to have cut a couple of darts in each side to get it half decent.


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:21 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1105
Location: isles of scilly UK
The work looks excellent and no doubt you will conquer the skin as well. I think varnish in this situation is the best way to finish the wood. I have only made ridgid skin on frame kayaks from partial kits which i obtained from Tyne when they were still in business. The Historic Canoe and Kayak Association, www.hcka.org.uk would be very interested in your project, and maybe their members can give you some advice on the making of the skin, if you should need any, i would send them an e-mail about your project to see if they are interested. I am of course a member of the association. Their quarterly journal is well worth the membership fee which isn,t high. The PBK 19 would be of great interest, i think one of their members has one.


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:21 pm 
It turned out to be every bit as frustrating as I feared probably impossible until you learn to embrace the wrinkles and live with them although the fewer the better.
The fabric I chose was a dense polyester weave impregnated with PVC and has no give or stretch in it, I tried warming it up by the stove and 2 people pulling as hard as we could along the keel, if the was any give I didn't notice. One suggestion I have since found is to attach a tackle or small winch and leave in the hot sun or heating in some way while periodically increasing the tension, maybe......
A nylon fabric impregnated with PVC might be better.
Another approach would be to cut panels and join at each stringer rather like doing a stitch and glue hull as shown here, maybe next time.

These are some of the wrinkles I had at the gunwale on the first attempt.
Image

Probably not the best option but I cut 2 darts in each side
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The finished darts which created some wrinkles of there own, most of which I have been able to work out, the 2 darts took a total of 2 inches of excess material out of the gunwale area the was no way I could figure out how to stretch the material along the keel that much as a neater alternative to the darts. I have a renewed respect for the professionals, I notice my neighbours Klepper only has one horizontal seam in the hull just below the sponson and no darts, I would love to know how they do it although it probably has something to do with the choice of fabric and having built thousands.
Image

I'm just putting on the last of four deck panels, here the deck is temporarily held down with masking tape while I mark the glue line on the hull so I can attach masking tape.
She is beginning to show her classic PBK lines.
Image

A few more jobs to do on the deck and then I can remove the temporary lashings and cut out the excess fabric. Then comes another moment of truth how easily the frame will come out and go back in, tightening the temporary lashing is a bit of a judgement call, too tight and the frame will be hard to install, too loose and wrinkles.........
Image
A few more pictures here

Thanks for the link John I'll get in touch


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:19 pm 
I've still got a few jobs to do but I couldn't resist, it was a beautiful day and the lake is in my back yard so it was time for a float test

Image
The wrinkles aren't too bad in some lights

Image
The cockpit coaming has a glass fiber nose, the plans called for a metal one but I couldn't figure out how to bend it with my equipment so I made a mould out of cardboard covered with plastic tape and fiber glassed it.

Image

I've had the kayak apart and re-assembled a few times and assembly time is around 1/2 hour, the hardest part is taking the framework out of the skin it's a two man job unless you can tie the skin down, there is no problem inserting the frame, I guess this is where sponsons would be handy.
As to handling I'm not really qualified to say I've had very little time in kayaks but lots in canoes, the first impression was how lively she felt but this was probably due to lack of weight, my wife and I barely have 250lbs between us, when our 50lb dog joined us stability increased markedly, I think another 100lbs and she will be real solid, I'm pleased the dog made things better not worse but we're going to be limited to sheltered waters with her aboard I expect.
I notice the PBK hull is shaped a bit like a dory in the midship section with a fair bit of flare so as the displacement increase so does the stability, I expect the secondary stability should be quite high but as we had ice in the lake couple of weeks ago we didn't test it.
One problem came to light the cockpit is quite deep especially up forward (about 16") so my wife's seat had to be at least 5" above the bottom of the boat and she could really use another couple of inches. I'm sitting about 2" above the bottom of the boat and could also use a bit more height, of course this has a negative effective on the center of gravity so I was wondering what seat height is normal in a kayak of this type?
It might have something to do with the paddles I haven't made them yet so we had a borrowed pair one long (265cm) and one short (210) we both preferred the longer ones although that might have something to do with them being the lighter in weight.


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:06 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1105
Location: isles of scilly UK
Congratulations, you have done an excellent job. If you find the seats low you could try one of those square foam cushions used in boats,(sold in Canadian Tire and some Hardware shops) this should stop you or your wife hitting the coaming with your knuckles, and if when you try to pull the frame out it sort of sticks to the skin, then a large garbage bag put on the bow and stern parts of the frame before insertion usually help when you come to pull them out, you will probably tear them but even torn they work, try it and see. As regards paddle length have a length you like and what works best for you, i have long paddles. Some members say shorter is best but what you like is what matters. As regards ballast some containers of water work well. You should send some photos to the Historic canoe @ kayak Association in the UK, Percy Blandford who is now 100 will most likly see them. If you need to make a spray cover and its not on the drawing i have made them for my Kleppers and held on with "press" fasteners. I wish i was in your area my local lake is still covered in thick ice.


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:53 pm 
Thanks John the pictures show the boat in the best light, like my face the wrinkles are more noticeably in most light conditions but you get used to it :lol:
That's a really good idea with the garbage bags I would never have thought of that, thanks.
This is the spray deck plans that came with the plans package, not much detail.

Image

I have all the materials including the press fasteners but have been hesitate to build them because I'm worried about how hard it would be to get out in an emergency exit I think just one loop to pull on would be best but don't have any experience with spray decks, how do you find the press fasteners work? My thoughts at the moment are just to build something to keep the paddle drips and rain off that is fairly easy to get out off and worry about a full spray deck if we start to head out to more open waters.


Last edited by Chinook on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:37 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 180
Location: Arizona, USA
Wow, Chinook ...

Applause, applause, applause !

Excellent job, and a tip of the hat to you :)

_________________
Kenton


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:51 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1105
Location: isles of scilly UK
The original Klepper spray cover was held on with clips that pressed down over the coaming. When i no longer had a front seat passenger, (a German Shepherd) i decided it would be better if i had no forward hole in the spray cover, i still have the Klepper one if needed. My two seat Tyne skin on frame has the spray cover held on with press fasteners and it seemed ok, so i made one for the Klepper using the same type of press fastner and it has worked out fine. In 40 years i have never had to "bail out". The opening in the top and bottom of the "tunnel part" of the spray cover are big enough for me to pass through wearing my PFD, the top is of course round and slightly a bigger diameter than the coaming, the bottom which is sewn to the spray deck is square this allows that part to also be big enough as i throw this back half over my head when i sit in the rear seat and then fasten the press fasteners, all the forward ones being fastened before i get in. If it is raining i have (a cagoule?) a sort of big anorak made by Kokatat. I bought mine from Moutain Equipment. I have let one of the members of the Historic Canoe and KAYAK association know of about your PBK 19 as i am a member, although i can,t go to their "events" the membership is quite low and well worth the quarterly journal they issue. It,s about kayaking in the past and i find it interesting, there are two members in Canada and i think two in the USA, most of course in the UK and Europe. If you would like a copy of their journal look at http://www.hcka.org.uk and it will tell you where to send for a complimenary copy. Here are photos, one shows the press fastener part on the coming with the klepper spray cover showing the clips that push down over the coaming, the other photo what my spray cover looks like.


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:55 pm 
I thought it was about time I posted some more information on the performance of this Kayak as mentioned before I have little experience with kayaks, a modest about with canoes and lots of offshore sailing experience so some of what I have found out will be old hat to many.
Basically she performs how the books say folding kayaks are supposed to in that she is very stable, we find we cruise at 5kph and 6kph when we really get into the groove, head winds of 10-20kph only slow us slightly maybe 1kph, in the canoe we would almost be stopped.
With 2 aboard and the dog (maybe 300lbs total) she rides like a duck in a 1 meter beam swell with a cross chop of a headland, so far we have had no solid water in the cockpit the high flared coaming does a good job of deflecting any water that reaches it. I found her a bit of a handful to control with a beam or stern wind or sea without a rudder, doable but not fun, so I have added a rudder which has made all the difference.
She flexes very little, when brand new there was a few creaks but these are largely absent now, I see no reason to add the extra bracing that was on the plans.
We have done some capsize and re-entry drills, when I'm seated if my wife seats on the gunwale she will not go over until she leans out and gets her weight out over the gunwale, I imagine if we had some more weight aboard (we had no gear for the tests) it would be even harder.
Re entry was easy, I held one side at the rear and my wife came in over the other side at the front of the cockpit, I had rigged up rescue stirrups but we found they were un-necessary and a nuisance. The boat was about 1/2 full of water but while my wife acted as counter balance I was able to re-enter over the rear deck sideways to avoid the rudder and slide forward into the cockpit. With the boat 1/2 full of water stability was naturally reduced but I bailed while by wife paddled, in a real world situation it might be better to bail a bit before the second person re-enters. As the PBK19 has no sponsons in the design I have installed bouyancy bags in the bow and stern and 4 short home made bags that attach under the gunwale either side of the cockpit with about 30lbs of buoyancy each, without these I believe re-entry would have been much more difficult.
Were slowly gaining confidence in the design after a few coastal trips and one overnighter but with the large open cockpit and the dog aboard we have been very careful selecting our weather, I'm still debating what to do about a spray deck and the dog, it looks like I'm just going to have to live with the fact that the dog will always reduce our capabilities, but maybe some sort of spray deck will increase them slightly, if only I could train the dog to use it properly.


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:43 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1105
Location: isles of scilly UK
Sounds really good. In reality have you yet been in conditions where you could in fact be swamped easily? In almost 40 years it has never happened to me, but then i am not on the sea,(if all goes well i will be next year). You have done the wet exit and now have the experience from it. As your photo shows Percy Blandford held the spray cover on with "pop" fasteners and it works because as i have said earlier thats how i hold my home made spray covers on. The part that goes around your bodies could be made to split and fastened with "pop" fasteners in the way that Klepper made theirs years ago, these could be opened pretty quickly if you had to, and in any case they wouldn,t be a tight fit. (Percy Blandford may show this on his drawing). To cover the opening if needed you could have the cagoule(that looks wrong), a sort of cape or anorak made by Kokatat, a type of anorak and spray cover combined really made for single seaters but they would work (i have one). The problem is the dog. When i had a German shepherd i paddled alone and the dog had it,s head through the front hole in the spray cover. If you want photos of the "original" Klepper spray cover i will post them.


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:57 pm 
Thanks for the offer John but I recently got access to my neighbours Aries 2 spray cover which has solved another puzzle, how to cut the fabric to achieve the tunnel shape, I just have to decide what to do about the dog
So far I haven't been in conditions where I thought swamping was even a remote possibility, we have a self imposed limit if winds over 15kts (30kph) are forecast we don't go, who wants to paddle against that anyway. On the ocean bad sea conditions are possible even with no wind, we take it easy, read the guides and rely on some sea sense being left from our years on big boats, most of the time so far it's been flat calm like a lake, we have had 15kts on the beam but were sheltered by off lying islands so only 3km of fetch and seas no different from a lake, not a problem.
The fun starts when the swell starts to inter act with certain land masses.
We have some great relatively sheltered paddling conditions ideal for beginners on parts of coast here
Nova Scotia Kayak Routes
Cape La have Islands
Blue Rocks
Tangier


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 Post subject: Re: PBK 19 Build, I hope
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:27 pm 
The keel and frames are now complete, I made a few changes to the original plans
1) The original folded with some pieces 63” long, I wanted to reduce this to 54”
2) Originally the keel consisted of 2 stringers joined with ¼” plywood running the length of the keel at the bottom of the boat directly in contact with the canvas, I think this would be very vulnerable to damage so I’ve joined the stringers on the top more like a Klepper, this may not be as strong as the originally design but seems fairly common practice.
3) The stem and stern are no longer part of the keel assembly but slide into it, the idea is to have the stringers permanently attached to the stem/stern and attached them in one operation, this may not be practical we will have to see
4) I’ve got rid of all the bolts and wing nuts by using locking pins and joints, hopefully these will work in practice. 8) :lol: :mrgreen: :arrow:


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