Folding Kayaks Forum

The user forum for FoldingKayaks.org
It is currently Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:44 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:49 pm 
Question is more to bicyclists (or chemists) - What is the best lubricant for steel ball bearings of the kayak cart? I'm currently using these 12"*2.5" inflatable wheels by Norhtern Tool http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_13794_13794.

Used them on the Paddleboy cart - due to larger diameter they are easier to roll than Paddleboy's 10" diameter wheels, and being twice thinner, they take much less space (essential in FC single kayaks). And also using them on my home-made cart (shown in the Photo Gallery with different wheels: http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/album81/T_Cart_small).

For one season steel bearings seemed to be okay, but then after 1 year they began corroding almost immediately after contact with sea water. I dip wheels in water to remove the grit before loading under deck, and as soon they dry out, the bearings are covered with rust - okay, may be not in one hour, but next morning. Needless to say, - made in China. Is there any machinery in North America still not made in China, I wonder...

Back to the question - what kind of lubricant/rust protectant can be used on these bearings? It should not migrate too much around the boat, and should be easily cleaned from the hull with seawater shampoo or Cotol in case of emergency field repairs (the only solvent I carry in trips). It should be just so-so water-resistant (I'm trying to rinse only the tires now, not the bearings). I'm thinking of a bicycle lube, - with synthetic oil and Teflon. Any ideas?

Boshield recommended by FC for protection of the frame will, I understand, protect the bearings from rust from the outside TAD, but it doesn't lubricate the balls inside, and I don't want it to get inside - when the petroleum solvent of Boshield dries out, the remaining wax on the frame looks like anything but a lubricant.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:44 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:02 pm
Posts: 1035
Location: Astoria, OR
Alex, you're stuck, I'm afraid.

The power boat trailer crowd deals with this regularly, having serious motivation to prevent bearing failure while towing their one- to two-ton toys home at speed on freeways. There are two common methods in use: sealed oil-filled bearings (what I have on my boat trailer); or, a grease fitting into which you inject grease, on a preventative basis, regularly, expelling the old nasty, water-contaminated grease into a waste container. AFAIK, there is no magic grease or oil that will prevent ordinary steel bearings from rusting on exposure to salt water.

The only good solution I can think of is to locate a set of sealed, internally lubricated bearings that would replace what you have got, or, to shoot for replacement bearings made of stainless steel. If you take good measurements of the existing units, I suspect a good industrial supply outlet could come up with a drop-in set of units. Probably won't be cheap. You might try here, just to see what is available: http://www.mcmaster.com/ Search under "ball bearings" and then select stainless steel.

Most likely, the bearings that are in there are a press fit, and you'd have to get a machine shop to push out the old ones and push in the new ones using a hydraulic press. Any decent auto repair facility should have a bearing puller and a press.

_________________
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
--
Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:31 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1742
Location: Southeast Michigan
As Dave says. Flushing he grease after immersion is the only way. But ball bearings are total overkill for a kayak cart, unless you're towing it behind a vehicle. I'd replace the wheels with something that used a plastic bushing.

_________________
Michael Edelman
FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:17 pm 
No, those bearings on my wheels are not pressed in. If you look at the photo of that wheel - they are sitting in the plastic hub, and can be pried out with a knife or screwdriver. They look like what McMaster calls "Flanged Double Shielded", but McMAster don't have it for 1/2" shafts. OTH, they have "flanged double sealed" bearings of my size - from a regular carbonated steen, not a stainless. As they explain, "Double-sealed bearings have Buna-N seals (unless noted) that block out dirt, preserve lubricants, and reduce noise". I don't see any plastic seal on my bearings, so they must be "double shielded", i.e. lower protection from the elements - but may be there is some "seal" that I don't see, and the rust is on the outside only, so there is notthing to worry...

I totally agree that plastic bushings is a better solution for these wheels - and I had golf-cart wheels with plastic bushings on the first version of this cart, but non-inflatable foam tires didn't hold on to the rims reliably. Soft plastic rims, sof t foam - under heavy loads the foam tires separated from the rims.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:24 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:02 pm
Posts: 1035
Location: Astoria, OR
Alex, I'd guess the double sealed bearings are what you need. BTW, I noted your review of these wheels states the bearings are made of stainless. Could not find that info on the site. If the bearings and the races are stainless, and you are not getting noise or grinding from them, just hit them with Boeshield or similar now and then, and call it good. Can't expect much sophistication at $9/wheel.

Probably cheaper to buy a new set of wheels, instead of investing in fancy bearings.

_________________
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
--
Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:08 pm 
Quote:
BTW, I noted your review of these [Norhtern Tool] wheels states the bearings are made of stainless. Could not find that info on the site.

My mistake. I thought so, because didn't notice any rust in the first few monhts. I've edited the text in the Gallery, - thanks. Norhtern Tool doesn't say it's stainless, but McMaster makes this type of bearings (double-shielded) only in stainless version, but unfortunately for shafts smaller than 1/2".

Quote:
If the bearings and the races are stainless, and you are not getting noise or grinding from them, just hit them with Boeshield or similar now and then, and call it good. Can't expect much sophistication at $9/wheel.
Probably cheaper to buy a new set of wheels, instead of investing in fancy bearings.

You're right - $9 for a wheel with 2 bearings is a bargain indeed. One of the bearings has become sluggish - as if it had some glue inside rather than lubricant. Not a disaster at these speeds, but a distinctive difference from 3 other bearings (2 bearings * 2 wheels, 4 in total). So I'll order one new wheel and will have 2 spare bearings plus one spare inner tube for the tire :-) ... Yeah, I've figured out that cleaning/sanding the rust on the casing and lubricating with Boshield is enough. Not much noise so far - no squeaky or grinding sounds, just normal quiet rattling/humming of the balls.

PS: the bearings in my cart are not pressed onto the axle either. I've sanded and filed 1/2" stainless axle until the it could slip easily into the opening of the bearings (originally it was rather tight - as it should be). This is the beauty of it - I can dissemble the cart into 5 small pieces: 2 wheels, 1 axle and 2 T-shaped legs.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:02 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:30 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Stone Mountain, Ga. U.S.A.
Alex,

This site, http://www.spartech.com/wheels/lawn_mower_wheels.html claims rust and corosion free and has 1/2 inch shaft size, but are a little vague.

I too and looking to make a cart that is portable ( folds well and fits into my Kahuna ), light weight and works well. My wife has a pull behind Paddleboy http://paddleboy.com/pages/product_page ... oy_lg.html that folds away nicely. I made a schedule 40 PVC tube version with similar wheels, but I am not crazy about the pull behind version with the small wheels.

I like your current design cart. I may work on a similar idea and look for wheels around here as well.

C.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:25 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:30 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Stone Mountain, Ga. U.S.A.
I forgot to mention that http://www.wheeleez.com have wheels with 1/2 bushings as well as S. S. axles, etc. for the do it yourselfers.

C.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:26 pm 
>This site, http://www.spartech.com/wheels/lawn_mower_wheels.html claims rust and corosion free and has 1/2 inch shaft size, but are a little vague.

They don't say anything about bushing or bearing - at least, I couldn't find.

> I made a schedule 40 PVC tube version with similar wheels, but I am not crazy about the pull behind version with the small wheels.

End-wheels (or stern-wheels) are for smooth hard terrain like concrete ramp AND for empty boat. They don't work on sand or pebbles, and they are pain when the boat is even partially loaded with gear. Mostly they are a pain because of poor passability - you don't usually have a ramp on every campsite :-)

>I like your current design cart. I may work on a similar idea and look for wheels around here as well.

It folds small enough for Kahuna, and it carries the weight over rough terrains well. 9"*3" golf-cart wheels with plastic bushing and foam tire are okay for most purposes - I abused them too much, trying to load too much weight. Those $9 wheels with steel ball-bearings that I'm using now, are good too, and roll easier due to larger diameter - I only will have to take some care of them, lubricating with Bo-shield and avoiding rinsing the bearing in sea water. Now I've changed the kickstand, and this suddenly has become difficult. The original design by Alex Ferguson was simple, but I didn't like his kick-stand on bungeys. The distance between the wheels in this design of cart is crucial for boats like Kahuna - supporting tubes have to be under the rear cockpit rib, i.e. with span not wider than the rib.

> http://www.wheeleez.com have wheels with 1/2 bushings as well as S. S. axles, etc.

Plastic bushing is good, but wheels are TAD bulky and heavy compared to those that I'm using. Their stainless axle is very interesting - I need to think about this, may be will find some use for it, but I'm afraid it fits only these particular wheels and will not work with thinner wheels of the same diameter.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:49 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:30 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Stone Mountain, Ga. U.S.A.
<<End-wheels (or stern-wheels) are for smooth hard terrain like concrete ramp AND for empty boat. They don't work on sand or pebbles, and they are pain when the boat is even partially loaded with gear. Mostly they are a pain because of poor passability - you don't usually have a ramp on every campsite>>

You are so right Alex......hence the reason to consider the cart approach. We have several Northern tool stores here in Atlanta. Hmmmmm. :idea: perhaps a new project in store....

Chris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:58 am 
Check Paddleboy Nemo. I have Paddleboy Yedo with discontinued yellow wheels, same frame as in Nemo. It's not bad for weekend trips in Kahuna. Only needs adding a strap with buckle. I've made a cart with golf wheels (and later - Northern Tool wheels) because wanted it to be very compact. The other side of the coin - many separate parts and some other limitations - will become apparent when you start using it.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:25 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:30 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Stone Mountain, Ga. U.S.A.
Alex,

Here is an interesting cart close to being corosion free.

http://www.kayakfishingstuff.com/articl ... rticles=38

Chris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:51 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1742
Location: Southeast Michigan
That's clever, but way overbuilt. The use of those heavy duty ball bearing hub wheels is a weakness. They add weight, a need for regular flushing with lube, and a failure point, and are designed to carry something like 300lbs (or more) each- whereas the PVC frame will fail with a fraction of that load. Wheels with nylon bearings are ideal for a kayak cart, since it's never going to be pulled faster than perhaps 3 MPH, and only has to carry well under 100lbs.

_________________
Michael Edelman
FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:22 am 
kayakamper wrote:
Here is an interesting cart close to being corosion free.

http://www.kayakfishingstuff.com/articl ... rticles=38

I've seen this one, - or its version published on another forum 3 years ago, and then lost this link. Thanks. I tend to agree with Mike - this is TAD overkill. I was thinking of making one, but decided that this isn't a cart for my purposes.

Pros:
Easy to build.
Good passability with those balloon tires.
Corrosion-resistant.

Cons:
Many parts - need to assemble and dissemble every time.
Bulky wheels - there is no room for 12" * 7" tires in Kahuna, especially when attached to plastic elbow.

This guy (or another one) showed photos with his daughter in the plastic kayak towing it over nearly 45 degrees stairs to the beach (wheels were either 12", or larger - I don't remember). So both passability and strength are excellent. But you can't affor 12" balloon tires in Kahuna - no room. This PVC frame can carry more than 100 lbs - probably 150-180 lbs. The elbow/screw assembly might not last long, as PVC is soft - but these are cheap parts.

I'll disagree with Mike on desired strength - kayaking cart should sustain at least 100 lbs - Kahuna is 50 lbs with backpack and accessories, Folbot singles are from 50 to 70, MK1 is almost 100 lbs. Plus some wetness on hull, plus some semi-permanent gear (pump, deckbag, repair kit or floataion bags etc deep inside, plus some cargo that you prefer loading before towing it to the water (why not, if cart is strong enough?).... Plus, high instantaneous loads caused by sharping the cart or towing it over some bumps. Plus, some bilge water - other boats like Folbots or Klepper often have it, okay, it's not supposed to be in FC, but what if it is there? Would you like bailing those 20-25 lbs all out at the stormy water edge only because the cart wouldn't handle it?...

I'm probably trying to achieve too many goals, and my purpose has been to make the cart work as a luggage cart as well, - and then it should carry 180-200 lbs, including the boat, gear and food. Paddleboy Yedo or Nemo can be used as a luggage cart, so-so, and it can carry 250 lbs in 2 bags of MK1 and all the gear (see photo in my MK1 Baja trip album). The "T-cart" that I've made, also can carry about 250 lbs, and can be used as a luggage cart (with tarp poles shoved into the tubes). Hopefully I will resolve issues with the kickstand (and with storage of 2 small pins - may be in some "wallet" or pocket or key-ring attached to the cart)

You can buy Paddleboy Nemo and replace 10" * 3" wheels with 12" * 1.75" ones from Northern Tool, if you like. Not much difference, but this size seems to fit Kahuna's confines better. I'll provide more details if you decide to do this and encounter any problems. Those halfmoon pieces attached to wheels of Nemo are pain to pack for air travel, btw. They're better be dissembled and then assembled upon landing. Small wrench and pliers you should carry in repair kit in remote trips with Kahuna anyway.

PS: FC Kahuna is an excellent weekend overnight and day-paddling boat. But FC K1 is much better boat for trips longer than 2-3 days, because even on a 2-day trip it is easier to load something like Nemo into K1, than in Kahuna. On a 6-day trip loading Nemo under Kahuna's deck will be insurmountable pain (not to mention other carts like Primex, with frames even more bulky than Nemo, and without any bushings).


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:54 pm 
Speaking of carts with weak designs... I recently purchased a Seattle Sport "Mighty Mite".
Image
I've had very little experience with carts so I'm not sure what to expect, however I really had a lot of trouble getting this cart to work for me.

:arrow: First it had a tendency to collapse under a load of 200 to 300 lbs.
:arrow: I found the wheels still bogged down in the gravel/sand we have here in the San Juans.
:arrow: The frame began to bend under the weight and constant collapses. (REI sales rep claims SS short cutted the frame weight for adding bearings...)
:arrow: I managed to cut myself on a bolt point.
:arrow: Finally the most disturbing bit was one of the bearings falling out of the nylon wheel someplace between my pack up location in Anecortez and my drying location at home. I warranty replaced the entire cart.

I haven't got far enough to determine the fate of the bearings in long term use, but I imagine if the bearings don't fall out (As the sales rep at REI tells me is a chronic problem) they will rust if not properly rinsed and repacked with something like Pedro's or Phil Wood's bearing grease.

I did manage to hold on to the straps from the damaged cart so I have 2 sets of straps for the new cart. I'm hoping this will help keep the cart from collapsing all the time.
-Andreas


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group