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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:06 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Alex wrote:

<<Pros:
Easy to build.
Good passability with those balloon tires.
Corrosion-resistant.

Cons:
Many parts - need to assemble and dissemble every time.
Bulky wheels - there is no room for 12" * 7" tires in Kahuna, especially when attached to plastic elbow. >>

You are right Alex. My thought would be to modify this design either with the tires from Northern or a modified verson with the Northern wheels and a stainless steel axle so that the wheels come off for Kahuna storage....but then the con of " too many parts" still exists.

I do like the strength/ease of build/completely corosion proof PVC. Built with schedule 40 ( thicker wall ) PVC, it should last a long time.

As you know, we all have different terrains to overcome. Here, it is mostly a long pull over mostly smooth surfaces to the boat ramp or put in point. We don't have to overcome much gravel or really soft beachy conditions.

I still like the idea of your Aluminum set up because of its compactness.

Perhaps something I truely like will come out of all of this. :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:49 am 
kayakamper wrote:
My thought would be to modify this design either with the tires from Northern or a modified verson with the Northern wheels and a stainless steel axle so that the wheels come off for Kahuna storage....but then the con of " too many parts" still exists.

You can of course build this PVC cart (in your link) with Northern Tool 12*1.75 wheels. But PVC elbows with bolts attached to the wheel make this part TAD bulky, and bearings in those NT wheels are not stainless, and like you said, there are still too many parts. Why not getting Nemo then? Nemo's wheel with halfmoon piece is about same bulky as in that PVC elbow assembly (even with NT wheel on PVC elbow), and bushings don't corrode, and there are just 2 П-shaped parts, connected by short strap (in addition to wheel asemblies).

Quote:
I still like the idea of your Aluminum set up because of its compactness.

This is THE most compact cart I've ever seen. (Design wasn't mine, though I've modified it). You can build these T-shaped alumium pieces using 2 aluminum tubes and a PVC plumber's Tee (in lieu of aluminum welding, if this is a problem). I also think I have a pair of these welded T-shaped aluminum pieces to spare - would be a shame to throw away aluminum these days. They are from my first version, made for 9" golf-cart wheels (highly recommend trying these wheels), so the legs are 1 inch shorter. You'll still need to drill stainless axle (for pins) and machine it to 0.1mm smaller diameter, as the bearings in NT wheels ar made with negative tolerances (usual thing with bearings).

Quote:
I recently purchased a Seattle Sport "Mighty Mite".

Herr Captain - you probably loaded it with 100 lbs Klepper double and other gear. Though, it still should've been able to handle it without bending - these and similar carts by Wheeleez or Primex or some by Klepper (all 3 identical) are rated to 180-200 lbs. It is interesting that they used a wheel with bearings in this Mighty Mike - apparently inserting the bolt into the tube of the frame. But its frame is absolutely the same as those 3 mentioned above. People used Primex cart with swamped boats, and with Folbot singles and doubles - these are heavy even when empty, and frame didn't bend. Bearings don't fall out of Primex - because it doesn't have bearings (and this in itself is a source of many complaints). Most of these carts are made in China nowdays, and may be your Mite was made by some factory with particularly low quality standards.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:12 am 
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Alm- I didn't intend to say that a Kayak cart shouldn't support 100lbs- rather that the wheels on the do-it-yourself design were way overspecified for the strength of the rest of the cart. They'd probably support 300-400lbs each, whereas I suspect that PVC tubing cart would be flexing at 100lbs.

I like the Primex, but have only used it to carry a relatively unladen Klepper double- under 100lbs. Kayaks aren't designed to carry really heavy loads out of the water, regardless of how strong a cart may be. It's easier to portage the boat and load seperately.

I remember a trip nearly 20 years ago with a friend, in which we loaded a canoe with enough gear for a week in the wilderness while a crowd watched... only to realize that we really should have waited until we had the boat at the water's edge ;-) Rather than look like doofuses and unload the boat, we picked it up and carried it 50 yards, swearing all the way ;-)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:49 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Well, I picked up a few supplies and plan to build a cart in the next few days. I know Alex, that it would be easier to buy a Nemo and just be done with it, but the challange is what I like. Buying the Chinese made Nemo is easy and probebly makes the most sense.

Michael, you are right, load it at the put in point! I have had similar embarrasing experiences.

I am building something that I hope is compact, light weight, plastic, strong and pretty corosion free 8) . If it turns out as I invision, I will post some pictures. If it is a fool hardy contraption :oops: I'll sit in the corner for a while and then order a real one online or something :roll:

Chris


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:59 am 
mje wrote:
Alm- I didn't intend to say that a Kayak cart shouldn't support 100lbs- rather that the wheels on the do-it-yourself design were way overspecified for the strength of the rest of the cart. They'd probably support 300-400lbs each, whereas I suspect that PVC tubing cart would be flexing at 100lbs.

Yeah, I understood that. Those wheels shown on the photo with metal hub are probably heavy and sustain over 150 per wheel. http://www.wheeleez.com/beachwheels.php have wheels with 200 lbs per wheel - with balloon tires they are still bulky, though. Most of commercial carts have wheels with loads about 90-100 lbs per wheel.

Loading at put-in point... Yes and no. Boat frame loaded with heavy gear is more prone to damage when out of water, - this is true. I never load it up to the limit before towing it to the water. Still, I like assembling Kahuna under the trees 100 m from water and load it fully for 2-day trip, and then towing it on the cart to the water. Because it's too hot for such exercises on the beach - my brain and muscle efficiency slows down and assembling takes longer. Besides, onlookers with their questions about "collapsible kayak" slow me down too - so I prefer less exposure in every way. My home-made cart (and Paddleboy Yedo or Nemo as well) allows carrying 50 lbs of Kahuna plus 50-60 lbs of gear, food and water for a 2-day trip. Kahuna itself is also strong enough to carry 60 lbs ashore on the cart without any damage.

kayakamper wrote:
the challange is what I like. Buying the Chinese made Nemo is easy and probebly makes the most sense.

Paddleboy is one of the few still made in the USA. Primex is Chinese, and so is Wheleese, and also - Norhtern tool wheel that I used on home-made cart (and for a while - on Paddleboy). Post any pictures or impressions, when you make some prototype. Incidentally, I've realised one more thing - my home-made cart is getting more and more "specialized" - well suited for Kahuna in both "boat" and "bag" configurations (very likely - for FC K1 too), but more difficult to use with other boats. Okay, I only have Kahuna now....


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:33 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
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I am only a Kahuna owner at the moment too. My wife has a kahuna and a Wilderness Systems Cape Horn ( how'd that happen? ), so I will see how specialized I will get. If I get this somewhat generic one built, I may find it fits her Cape Horn better. I can already see a more compact one coming for me.

I am taking pictures as it comes along. Actually, it is almost finished except for wheels. I will try the northern wheels, but have to go pick them up.

Broken down, the cart fits nicely into a thermorest bag ( sans wheels ).

I hope to post some completed pictures in a day or so. I am hoping to use ( try it out ) over the 4th of July, so I better get busy 8)

Chris


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:33 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Here is a link to the completed carts out of PVC I have made.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/559784549pBolCc

They are not the solution for everyone. I am not even sure that they are the solution for me, but I had fun making them. The main one I focused on is the center cart. When straped to my Kahuna, it allows the boat to be pulled very easily. I ended up spending less than half of what a typical center cart costs :lol: , but made up for that in labor :roll: . I could make a second one about twice as fast :!:

I am a little dissapointed at the number of pieces I end up with and the over all tire size ( storage ), but it does store well in my ( unloaded ) Kahuna, it is relatuvely light and I can keep track of all of the parts in the storage bag I used.

Mostly stainless steel, aluminum and PVC parts were used, so it should last a while.

Thanks to you Alex and the Kayakfishingstuff.com article elsewhere in this thread for the inspiration. :lol:

Chris


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:54 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Now that I have built my cart, here is a nice cart and looks well made for the money http://www.paddlecart.com/. They have a nice idea for a solution to soft sand. Wheels look familiar!!!

It looks as though this cart was used in the "A Lap around the state" article in the June 2007 issue of Sea Kayaker magazing. The article says they had to portage 40 miles on rural roadways with 120lbs of gear and kayak. no mention to cart breakdown, so it must have held up well. BTW, one of the entrants paddled a Feathercraft K1.

I also forgot to mention that I put a tube type bicycle pump in the same bag as my cart.

Chris


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:49 pm 
Quote:
Here is a link to the completed carts out of PVC I have made.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/559784549pBolCc

I am a little dissapointed at the number of pieces I end up with and the over all tire size ( storage ), but it does store well in my ( unloaded ) Kahuna, it is relatuvely light and I can keep track of all of the parts in the storage bag I used.

Number of parts was the reason for me not to go with this idea. Still, it packs more compact than any commercial center-cart (very important for Kahuna), and is cheap to make. In my cart I have 2 parts and 2 pins (I've come up with an idea of small wallet for pins strapped to the frame), plus wheels. T-shaped legs are connected by strap, so they are one part.

You're placing this cart in the cockpit area. Which is fine for unloaded Kahuna, but not too good when it has a bit of gear inside. If you place it under the rear cockpit rib, then those horizontal tubes with red foam can be made much shorter - 1 ft is enough. Just make sure that tubes are just inside between 2 lower stringers, - not outside.

Quote:
here is a nice cart and looks well made for the money http://www.paddlecart.com/.

3 problems:
1) cross-wise piece is very wide for k1 or Kahuna - wide to atttach the boat and wide to load under the deck.
2) it has a fixed span between the horizontal tubes - so you can't change it to fit the folder's frame better.
3) heavy.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:42 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Alex wrote:

<<You're placing this cart in the cockpit area. Which is fine for unloaded Kahuna, but not too good when it has a bit of gear inside. If you place it under the rear cockpit rib, then those horizontal tubes with red foam can be made much shorter - 1 ft is enough. Just make sure that tubes are just inside between 2 lower stringers, - not outside.>>

My original cart was inside the lower stringers and it seemed that I was putting too much stress on the hull. This is due, I guess to putting it under the cockpit and not under a rib. Also, it seemed to out of balance and top heavy with the narrow width. It actually fell over on a slight hill and my boat was unloaded. When I widened it and placed it under the sponsons it has been much more stable over uneven terrain.

As for loaded, I guess your right. I do feel that a more centered cart helps the puller with, perhaps 60% of the boat forward of the cart. While putting it at the farthest aft rib gives me the same problem as I have had with a typical end cart, still to heavy for a long distance.

I will try it under the rib directly behind the cockpit. Perhaps we use our Kahunas differently. I usualy paddle on day excursions and I think you do longer trips and, perhaps carry more weight.

The idea of an even smaller/narrower cart is appealing as I will always want a simpler, more compact design to store away. Maybe some more modifications are due.

Some good points Alex.

Chris


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:13 am 
Top-heavy, because it's too high. Those horizontal tubes should not be higher than 1"-2" above the edge of the wheel. In hardshell kayaks they can be even lower than wheels, but in FC this rib is concave up between the keelsen and stringer, so its corner outside the stringer is lower than the stringer.

Center of mass of empty or correctly loaded any single kayak is approximately where your butt is, i.e. very close to the aft cockpit rib, but not in the middle of the cockpit. So, when you place the cart under this rib, it is almost balanced, with center of mass just slightly fore of the cart, which is fine, - very little stress on hands. When horizontal tubes are only 1"-2" higher than wheels and the cart is under the rib, you can lift the bow a little higher than stern for better comfort, while with the cart placed in the middle of the cockpit you can't lift the bow without dragging the stern - unless it is very tall - which is the case with your cart (sorry, I didn't notice this earlier). As a result, it is less compact - taller legs, longer axle and longer horizontal tubes. The most bulky part is the wheel, though...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:49 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Thanks Alex. It is all starting to make sense now. My priorities were, 1) an even load, 2) an easy pull ( no leaning over, no additional weight on the puller, no tail dragging ) and 3) compactability.

I got the easy pull right, but at a cost to the other two.

So what you are saying is to lower it for a better center of gravity, narrow it to fit inside the stringers and place it under the aft cross rib for a balanced carry. I also liked it because of the ability to pull it at arms length without a potential of dragging the stern. Sounds like I can still do that with your ideas, though the boat will be less horizontal and a little upward leaning to the front.....perhaps I am thinking this out too much.

Also, my idea of the copper shaft and stainless washers may not be needed and I can eliminate a few parts. I was concerned because my Northern wheels keep loosing the bearings as they fall out of the plastic hubs easily when pulling them off of the shaft. I put in the washers and pinned them close to eliminate any wabble.

C.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:03 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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So now I have modified my cart to a better fit as Alex suggested. It proved to be a more logical way to build it, in fact, I made a couple of modifications to fit the Kahuna hull better.

http://community.webshots.com/album/559 ... c?start=12

Take note of the " modified cart photos ". The original design was better suited to a hard shell or sit-on-top and could have fit a number of wider folders. The beauty of 1" PVC is the ease of modification and customization. I eliminated some parts from the original design as I decided they were not needed.

Now it is time to go test it in the real world :lol:

Chris


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:45 am 
kayakamper wrote:
my Northern wheels keep loosing the bearings as they fall out of the plastic hubs easily when pulling them off of the shaft.

This is because the bearings are made with negative tolerances - they have a bore diameter about 0.1 mm (1/320") smaller than stainless axle diameter. This is usual thing with bearings. They are supposed to be pressed onto the axle and stay there forever. Chinese accuracy isn't perfect, though, and occasionally some bearings in these wheels fit easily onto the axle, but for the most part you can't put the axle through without tremendous efforts. Since this perfectly normal engineering idea was in contradiciton with my criteria of easy assembling and dissembling, I had to file the ends of the axle. Took me the whole day (with breaks, of course). On a small grinder this will take a few minutes, but I would rather take the axle and bearings to machinist and remove that 0.1 mm accurately along the whole length of the axle. With grinder it is dangerously easy to over-do the job.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:22 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Alex wrote:

<<This is because the bearings are made with negative tolerances - they have a bore diameter about 0.1 mm (1/320") smaller than stainless axle diameter. This is usual thing with bearings. >>

I too had to "clean up" my axles so that it was not a cronic problem. now, I am just careful to put them on and off. I must say, the wheels work well otherwise.

I glued up two more joints on my cart that were pinned together ( on the verticle shafts ) and now even more parts are eliminated. The cart stores away and goes together quite nicely now. Thanks for all of your ideas.

Chris


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