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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:00 am 
krudave wrote:
The Mark I is just a convenient, compact backup in the event my main stove (a white gas stove with high BTU capacity) pukes.

Compact, - yes. Not so sure about it being convenient - or is that oil burner ;-) with high BTU really that much pain? Honestly, I haven't seen anything more convenient than propane/isobutane stove (with built-in ignitor it's a just a sinful pleasure, lazy man's delight). It's been a long time since I used liquid-fuel stoves (not counting alcohol, which is different), and they weren't much fun back then, but I thought they've improved?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:31 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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I have to admit I went the same way as Alex while in Japan. But my Japan stove doesn't take the European canisters...

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~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:21 am 
chrstjrn wrote:
my Japan stove doesn't take the European canisters...

My Primus LPG stove also didn't take propane canisters. But I've modified it so that it would (must be shown in my albums). Hardware and automotive stores have long and narrow propane cartridges for welding, size of a wine bottle, with the same thread as in wide and short green Coleman tanks. These long tanks look very similar to those that I've seen in Europe (can be red, yellow, blue etc), and I suspect, though not 100% sure, that the thread is the same too. Propane tanks are heavier than Primus/MSR tanks, (this doesn't bother me in a kayak), and propane itself is less effective fuel than Primus/MSR gas blend, but not much less. 15% may be.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:27 am 
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Not sure which Primus you have. But, if it is jetted for a propane/isobutane mixture (same fuel the MSR stoves take), it will burn the pure propane, but definitely with some loss of heat on the top end. Some stoves can be re-jetted using a fitting that replaces the ones that come with the stove, but I suspect the Primus people would not endorse that. Product liability issues, etc.

As to whether a white gas stove is convenient or not: no change in the basic technology. You still have to prime it. White gas is not convenient for Becky, to the extent that we take a very compact Primus (Model PLS 3266; takes the isobutane/propane canisters, Primus numbers 2202 or 2207; these should be readily available in Europe, perhaps not elsewhere) as well as the white gas stove, so that if she wants to boil water she can easily do that. She is a real coffee addict, so this makes refueling her easier!

Our camping is on a larger scale than that of others, so that carrying the Primus as well as the white gas stove is no big deal, with two boats, or the big double. On solo trips of one night or so, I often take the little Primus, which is convenient and quick. Will not handle a large stir fry, but works just fine for one-person heat and eat meals. Very well made stove, and very compact. Right now, her daughter has it, a consequence of the long power outage here from the big windstorm.

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Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.


Last edited by krudave on Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:10 am 
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Alm wrote: These long tanks look very similar to those that I've seen in Europe (can be red, yellow, blue etc), and I suspect, though not 100% sure, that the thread is the same too.

Tanks are sometimes color coded for the type of gas, at least in the US. Mapp gas, for example, is invariably blue, in small canisters in the US. Uses a different thread, and produces an incredibly hot flame, useful for silver soldering and copper pipe soldering in a plumbing context. Wiki on Mapp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAPP_gas

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:57 pm 
Quote:
takes the isobutane/propane canisters, Primus numbers 2202 or 2207; these should be readily available in Europe

Go into any store in most of Western Europe and you will find the blue butane/isobutane/propane mix canisters made by Camping Gaz. These look very similar to, but are not compatible with, the MSR/Primus canisters - these can only be found in more specialist outdoors/camping shops and often in low stock at a higher price. Somewhere like France, you will probably save yourself a lot of effort, and possibly money, by dropping EUR15 on a new stove when you arrive.

Coleman type propane canisters are almost never used on camping stoves, if you want to find these you will have to look in hardware stores that stock flame tools.

Of course you'll rarely be far from a good pub cafe or restaurant if you run out of fuel.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:01 pm 
henry wrote:
Go into any store in most of Western Europe and you will find the blue butane/isobutane/propane mix canisters made by Camping Gaz. These look very similar to, but are not compatible with, the MSR/Primus canisters - these can only be found in more specialist outdoors/camping shops and often in low stock at a higher price. Somewhere like France, you will probably save yourself a lot of effort, and possibly money, by dropping EUR15 on a new stove when you arrive.

Coleman type propane canisters are almost never used on camping stoves, if you want to find these you will have to look in hardware stores that stock flame tools.

Yes, buying new stove upon landing is an option - but you need to go to camping store or at least to camping section of a big department store. OTH, small propane cartridge you can get at many hardware stores, gas stations, and even big grocery stores (Long's in the US, Autozone again in the US, Canadian Tire in Canada, and any automotive or hardware store in medium-size Mexican towns). Again, - these are propane tanks, - not butane/isobutane. You won't find butane/isobutane tanks in these stores - and camping store or department store may be far, far away from your launch site. Propane tanks are twice cheaper than butane/isobutane tanks, btw - and only slightly less efficient.

Yes, colour coding isn't that strict, even in the US. I used long blue propane tanks from hardware store, and long red propane tanks from Autozone, and didn't notice much difference from green fat and short Coleman tanks of the same volume (also sold in some hardware stores and low-end camping stores). The thread on small propane tanks is larger than on butane/isobutane tanks - I am not 100% sure it is the same as on propane tanks sold in Europe, but it looks very similar.

Quote:
Not sure which Primus you have. But, if it is jetted for a propane/isobutane mixture (same fuel the MSR stoves take), it will burn the pure propane, but definitely with some loss of heat on the top end. Some stoves can be re-jetted using a fitting that replaces the ones that come with the stove,

Dave, it was Primus Easyfuel for Primus or MSR butane/isobutane mixture (they have changed the model name after I bought it). I don't know what you mean by "jetted", but I've simply replaced the regulator (the one that is screwed on top of the propane tank), leaving the original Primus burner with its hose unchanged. Propane regulator had a black rubber hose attached to it, so I've just cut Primus regulator off, and fitted two hoses together (see photo below). As to the "head", or burner - I looked at this Primus burner, and at $15 screw-on-top propane burner, and couldn't see much difference. If there was any loss of the burner efficiency and this Primus burner is now less efficient on propane than $15 propane burner on propane - I can't notice this again, honestly. Small propane tank lasts now 4-5 days with cooking for one person 2-3 times a day, and my old "regular" propane burner didn't make it last any longer. In fact, I think that it lasts longer now, as this new regulator is from some big propane stove, and has a wide range of flow control.

Rather than mutilating Primus Easyfuel, I might, of course, have bought a propane free-standing stove with a compact foldable tripod like in Primus, hose, wide-range regulator, and built-in ignitor - but such thing doesn't exist. There was something by Coleman (for propane), remotely resembling Primus Easyfuel, but very, very remotely.

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:35 am 
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Alex, you got a system that works well for you ... and you've debugged it thoroughly. What could be better?

Jets = orifices the fuel escapes through. With straight propane instead of the isobutane/propane mix, for the same heat output, you need larger jets because the propane molecules are smaller in mass than the isobutane component. Without rejetting, it will burn a little lean. Better lean than rich. Rich in fuel might generate some CO.

Not worth worrying about for your use.

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Astoria, OR
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Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:30 am 
If I've got it right, propane flowing through my narrow Easyfuel burner will be leaner than if it were propane flowing through propane-designated burner, and as a result, the heat output will be TAD lower, and CO content - also lower? Then I really have nothing to worry about. I'm keeping in mind CO anyway during occasional (very occasional) use in tent in stormy weather. The tent had always had the door open on such occasions - not that I was worried about CO with storm-generated cold drafts all around, but simply as an escape route in case of fire.

PS: about colour-coding. It is apparently not the same in the US and Europe. And even in the US I've seen blue propane tanks for welding in hardware stores, and red propane for welding in Autozone. Have no idea, whether one of them was much hotter than another - the blue one I tried, and it was not unusually hot. Probably it was not the MAPP gas that you mentioned. But there was also yellow tank next to the blue one (or with a yellow label), cost $1 more, and when I asked "why", the clerk said "because it's very hot". So I didn''t buy yellow.

I've typed all this, thought about it a little - and I'm still not convinced that smaller opening of butane/isobutane burner in Easyfuel stove is causing lower heat output at normal operating level of regulator when burning pure propane. May be only - when the regulator is completely open. But I never keep it completely open. It is always somewhere in the middle, even when boiling (not to mention simmering), because I don't need that much flame and that much heat with 1-liter pot. Ony when the tank is almost empty and the pressure is very low, I open the regulator up completely. Better energy efficiency of butane/isobutane mix (per unit of weight and/or unit of volume) is a different thing - eventually I would consume it less than propane in the same trip, but only slightly less, - something to consider for hikers, but not for boaters


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:52 am 
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Alex, someone familiar with the system you are using could be a lot more helpful than I can. The regulation of flow is done in a couple different ways, with some just being a needle valve against a seat, and the gas escaping through a small orifice after the needle valve. It is the diameter of that orifice that limits the upper end of the flow. When the needle valve is barely open (burner is on lowest simmer), the orifice is not the limiter for flow. When the needle valve is fully open, then the orifice becomes limiting.

[The orifice diameter is designed to match the flow of gas with the air ducted into the burner to get clean burning. But, if the air ducted in is excessive, then the temperature of the flame will be lower because the combustion process has to heat up "extra" air, beyond what is needed to combust the fuel. In addition, because the orifice for a butane stove will be smaller than the one for a propane stove, if you use a propane fuel source on a butane stove, you will get less fuel flow than optimal, and hence lower total heat output. In short, these two effects combine for a lesser heat output.]

Other systems use a step-down pressure regulator (sometimes very primitive) which reduces the pressure at the needle valve control, partly for safety reasons, and (I think) partly to provide for better control of the flame. The larger propane bottles (8 lb and up) use these, and have a flow prevention device in them, also, which reduces the likelihood of a massive leak. I use large propane (actually LPG) cylinders a lot on our household BBQ, and these flow prevention devices sometimes stick closed, and need some "persuasion" to work.

I think the small propane cylinders you are using do not have any flow prevention device or pressure regulator, and just rely on a needle valve.

Wiki to Propane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane
Link to language below: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml02/02127.html

"An additional industry standard (adopted in 1995 at the urging of CPSC) provided for several safety features in the gas grills, hoses, and connections. The safety standard calls for a device to limit the flow of gas if the hose ruptures; a mechanism to shut-off the grill if it overheats; and a device to prevent the flow of gas if the connection between tank and grill is not leak-proof. People who have grills that do not meet the 1995 standard should either get a new grill or be especially attentive to the safety tips below."

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Astoria, OR
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Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:54 pm 
krudave wrote:
The regulation of flow is done in a couple different ways, with some just being a needle valve against a seat, and the gas escaping through a small orifice after the needle valve. It is the diameter of that orifice that limits the upper end of the flow. When the needle valve is barely open (burner is on lowest simmer), the orifice is not the limiter for flow. When the needle valve is fully open, then the orifice becomes limiting.

[The orifice diameter is designed to match the flow of gas with the air ducted into the burner to get clean burning. But, if the air ducted in is excessive, then the temperature of the flame will be lower because the combustion process has to heat up "extra" air, beyond what is needed to combust the fuel.... ]

I think it's needle valve. Shown here (scroll to the middle or dial search "Regulator & Hose": http://www.colemancanada.ca/Catalog/ACC ... n.products
It fits small cylinders, I don't think that 8-liter or bigger tanks have same thread as small green (+ small blue, red etc). This regulator is made for propane, so the orifice is big enough for propane and therefore is NOT a limiting factor. Only the burner end is from the original butane stove.

I understand that the amount of ducted air is built in the design of the burner, and depends on the diameter of the air intake holes in the short metal pipe under the burner. Roughly, - there is same total area of the holes in screw-on-top $15 propane burner and this Primus butane burner (4*2mm in one, and 1*4mm in another, squares of diameters total same 16 in both). So, - can't say whether it's leaner (due to excessive air) or not. Didn't notice an excessive consumption of fuel compared to $15 propane burner with needle regulator. Like I said, this new regulator has much wider range than in $15 propane burner, easy to keep in the optimal temperature, and this is contributing to fuel economy. I tend to think that this my "propane regulator with butane burner" provides either lean or close to optimal fuel/air ratio, because Primus burner design is very efficient, with a coiled pipe for preheating the gas before it goes into the burner.

It's interesting that you've mentioned the CO earlier. I have a feeling that solid-fuel stoves like Zipp or Mark1 can release quite a bit of CO under unfavorable conditions of burning or on certain types of fuel, not to mention other gases and solid particles, not healthy to inhale for the most part. Not that it matters in open air...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:08 pm 
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Alex, I think we are only talking to each other, here.

Without examining the burner, it is hard to say what the distribution mechanism is, after the needle valve. In any case, your arrangement works fine, is safe, and is a useful guide to others who might want to adapt a propane source to the Primus burner. You have done them a service by detailing your stove arrangement.

I think those who might follow in your footsteps will really appreciate the link to the regulator and adapter hose for the Primus burner. That is a key part, and allows the use of widely available propane cylinders with this burner.

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Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:19 pm 
I'm reading this stuff - don't need the information now, but it's nice to know where to find it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:29 pm 
Well, I can't help feeling that have been re-inventing a wheel; sort of. Propane burners for small propane tanks do exist, and start from $15 or 12 (not free-standing, and with almost zero width of regulation). But - shame on Coleman - their free-standing propane stoves are horrible monsters, compared to Primus foldable tripod and elegant corrosion-free design with pre-heating coil. Don't know why Primus haven't made models of that level for propane. There is Primus Omnifuel model, which says "... and propane", but apparently this is not true, and it only accepts liquid fuels and Primus/MSR cartridges, which are butane (unless there exist some unique Primus cartrides filled with propane):
http://www.myccr.com/press/articles/art ... icle_id=18 . And no ignitor in this one. Ok, enough of this boring stuff.


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