Folding Kayaks Forum

The user forum for FoldingKayaks.org
It is currently Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:48 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:42 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Well, I was so interested by the praise for the Mark 1 stove that I obtained one. I'll compare it to the Zzip stove.

Sierra Zzip stove

PROS
Significantly hotter and faster to boil/cook. More controllable in heat output. Less fire hazard due to having a bottom pan under the fire.

CONS
520 grams with the battery-- slightly heavier (and you should probably be carrying an extra battery, but that could serve double duty for your headlamp, etc.)
Not as sturdy.
Dependent on a battery (this will be the deal-breaker for some people).

Mark 1 stove

PROS
470 grams-- the lighter one by a negligible 50 grams. Bomb-proof design and construction. The most stable stove I've ever seen, for it's size.

CONS
Difficult to control heat output. Not as hot. Uses more fuel than the Zzip.

While writing this post (and looking for the Markill wood-burning stove mentioned by Bazzer, above), I found an EXCELLENT link on these matters:
http://zenstoves.net/
It gives links for many stoves I hadn't known existed. Now I'm captivated by the "Thermette"-- having all of the Kelly Kettle's flux in my tea and becoming senile from it's aluminum content just isn't my thing.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:01 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:02 pm
Posts: 1035
Location: Astoria, OR
Ah, but what about the ambiance of the Mark I compared to the Zip Stove?

Aesthetics ... aesthetics!

_________________
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
--
Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:31 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I can not disagree.

Mark 1
PRO
Much prettier.

:lol:

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:34 pm 
Oh, one of those endless topics... So, the main benefit of Mark1 stove is that it's prettier .... (50 grams weight difference isn't worth considering for a kayaker, I agree).
Battery dependence of Zipp stove is conditional - it can be used without battery as well, and then it's controllability and efficiency decreases, making it similar to Mark1.
I haven't had any problems with sturdiness of Zipp stove either. After one very rough treatment of very heavy LH bag with Zipp stove at the end (I dragged the bag over the airport floor, lifting one end), it got a dent in the body, which didn't affect the efficiency significantly.
I would forgive a stove lack of ambience if it does the job nicely. Unfortunately, I can't call it "nicely" with wood burning stoves - but "reliably", yes. Heat control problems, need to collect fuel evey time, and sooty pots after wood burning stove seems to me more important than the issue of apppearance. But they are reliable. Small pieces of wood, pine cons etc are available virtually anywhere, so as a back-up stove it's a good thing. Simple things are usually the most reliable - unfortunately not always the most efficient and convenient.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:30 pm 
I ran my Markill wood burning stove for more than 48hrs on one "C" cell battery. Pretty @%&$ good I would say. I have no expericance of the Zipp stove, but my guess is that it's performance should be about the same. It burns very hot and boils water in about the same time as a gas canister stove. Well with one exception. I have just purchased the new MSR Reactor stove and it's performance is outstanding. It boils water in about half the time of the popular Jet Boil. Yes I have one of those as well!! ( I'm selling if anyone is interested, it just does not work for me).
I would say that the gas stove it better for Kayak camping because being so close to the water dry fuel for the wood burners might be hard to come by. Of course you can always stow what you need if you have enough room. I am working on a couple of ideas to use a stove whilst on the water. I have a Feathercraft K1 with a mast hole. I don't use it all that much, but the lower section of the mast would make a ideal pole to hand one of my other stoves, either a Markill hanging stove or a MSR SuperFly, both of which are Isobutane.
I am a sucker for stove as is obvious, I love the Kelly Kettle for car camping, it's as fast as anything for a quick brew for tea. But I am very interested in the Kelly look alike thats made of copper, it's from NZ I think where they love their tea as well.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:01 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:02 pm
Posts: 1035
Location: Astoria, OR
For me, the Mark I stove is a good backup in case my white gas stove packs it in: very compact, and no added goodies needed beyond some starter tinder/wax/etc.. Where I paddle, small wood is readily available, and burns easily in the high-draft of this stove.

I paddled for a week with a woman who used a Sierra Zip stove, exclusively, and it worked fine for her one-person heat and eat meals (primarily breakfasts and hot drinks). However, it would never have been able to handle cooking a larger meal for three of us, so we put her in charge of pre-dinner snacks, and the other two of us did all the dinners. We like stir-fries and use a lot of fresh vegetables which demand high heat or longer cooking times, so we like white gas or propane for our uses.

_________________
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
--
Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:13 am 
Yes, white gas or propane/isobutane etc have no rivals in terms of convenience (and propane/isobutane beats white gas in convenience again).
Tea - I like it too and prefer it to coffee, but I'm keeping it simple while camping out, and using 0.5L (16 oz) tea-designated pot, nested in bigger meal-designated pot of GSI 1.25 quart pot set, and tea pouches. You may call it a tea kettle, though can be used for anything, - volume permitting. This set is more than sufficient for one, and is just enough for two. Placed in freshly boiled water in double-wall thermos cup with lid, tea pouch makes perfectly strong tea in a few minutes, and remains hot long enough with lid closed. Loose-leaf tea is nice, but I can live without this luxury for a week or two.

Here is the GSI boiler (new version with Lexane lid/plate)
and review of the older model


Last edited by Alm on Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:16 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Bazzer wrote:
...my Markill wood burning stove...I am very interested in the Kelly look alike thats made of copper, it's from NZ I think where they love their tea as well.


The copper Kiwi one is the one I just ordered-- please follow the "Thermette" link above. I'll be glad to report on it, probably around New Years time.

I found that great "zen" link looking for your fabled Markill wood burning stove. It is not anywhere on the web, therefore I would guess that it is out of production.

Dave: My experience with the Zzip is that it would handle cooking for 3 or more very well. Interesting to hear that you observed differently. Also, one of my questions with the Mark 1 and similar is: why carry a backup stove at all? One can readily construct a similar stove out of flat stones, as we did last time I went camping.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:36 am 
chrstjrn wrote:
one of my questions with the Mark 1 and similar is: why carry a backup stove at all? One can readily construct a similar stove out of flat stones, as we did last time I went camping.

There could be no flat stones. And if this stone structure collapses, you'll lose your dinner and time spent on making the stove. As a backup, Mark1 looks slightly better than Zipp. Even if it's not same efficient as Zipp, but a backup remains merely a ballast most of the time, so compact size is a factor (in a single kayak, but for a big boat like GII or AEII this doesn't matter). Zipp without its pots isn't terribly big - roughly 4"*6" - don't remember, still, Mark is smaller.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:47 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I have the Zzip and the Mark 1 sitting one on top of each other, right now, on a shelf. They're not all that much different in size, but the Mark 1 is much more packable.

I'll be honest: if I go into survival-mode, I'm going to be building a campfire. I understand Leave No Trace, etc., but I've also lived in countries where nobody's ever heard of LNT and camped, there, and campfires still work just as well as they always have. Humans have been using them for something like 4 million years, so I guess they're reliable as a backup. I don't understand carrying a "backup stove". I know someone's going to get upset at me for having said this, so I apologize for upsetting them in advance.

I still love campstoves. I still give a thumbs up to LNT. And I'm still looking forward to receiving my new Thermette. But I can't think of a situation where you would find me carrying two campstoves at once, on a trip.

So why did I order the Mark 1? Curiosity, I guess, and the never-ending quest for a mouse-trap that is both better and simpler at the same time.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:48 pm 
chrstjrn wrote:
I have the Zzip and the Mark 1 sitting one on top of each other, right now, on a shelf. They're not all that much different in size, but the Mark 1 is much more packable.

That's what I meant - Mark1 you can take apart into 5 nearly flat pieces, while Zipp always remains a cylinder about 6" *4". Normal state of a backup stove is being packed and tucked away in some obscure corner. Okay, it sounds like I'm promoting Mark1 stove now, without even seeing it - no, I don't think it is much better a backup stove than Zipp. Zipp is more controllable, and 4"*6" size of Zipp isn't a concern in a mulitday trip in any boat bigger than Kahuna. Just wanted to note compact packed size of Mark1 - I like when something is compact.

chrstjrn wrote:
I understand Leave No Trace, etc., but I've also lived in countries where nobody's ever heard of LNT and camped, there, and campfires still work just as well as they always have. Humans have been using them for something like 4 million years, so I guess they're reliable as a backup. I don't understand carrying a "backup stove".

It's not just about Leave No Trace, but also about better efficiency and convenience of wood burning stoves over campfires. Campfire will also warm you up, but if you are not cold and only need to make some meal or tea , wood burning stove is better than campfire. People have been using campfires for millions of years, allright, and they've also been using stone axe for millions of years until they've learned about iron (and then they had to learn about stoves too, and to build a furnace for smeltering iron out of the ore).


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:00 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Good responses, Alex.

Stone tools are still very effective (or so I was taught in my survival class (Tom Brown's school, for those of you who are in to such things)), unless they are being compared to metal ones.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:31 am 
You know... survival mode is something that I hopefully will never have to do, even though trying to be prepared. Never took survival classes, though. May be I should. But these skills may deteriorate without practice same as anything else. Dealing with metal wood burning stove like Zipp is already too much hassle for me, compared to propane stove (may be I'm getting lazy). Still, this is better than building a stone stove every night or making a campfire to cook your meal - less wasted time, much more controllable, and less fuel. And I would rate a metal stove ruggedness same as a campfire - failure of metal gizmo is technically possible, but very, very unlikely - this would take something like a bomb or a plane crash. Again, - I'm not promoting these stoves, just explaining my reasons to carry it.

In local trips shorter than 3 days I carry a different backup to my propane stove - alcohol Mini-Trangia burner and 0.5 L of alcohol in plastic bottle. Without pots and with potstand made of a food can, smaller than the original stand. It is much smaller and easier to use than Zipp, but not as convenient and a propane burner (that's why it is a backup).


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:05 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:02 pm
Posts: 1035
Location: Astoria, OR
The Mark I is just a convenient, compact backup in the event my main stove (a white gas stove with high BTU capacity) pukes. In survival mode, I'd be using a campfire, also.

Just for the record, I've been on a couple 2-week paddling ventures when virtually all the cooking was done on driftwood fires ... not my style, but what the main throng was doing. On beaches where there is a ton of driftwood, wood fires are not an environmental problem ... ashes and the small amount of charcoal remaining go away with each high tide. We put our kitchens below high tide when possible, to minimize damage to shoreside features and vegetation, as well as for some reduction in bear attraction.

_________________
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
--
Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:45 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
krudave wrote:
...virtually all the cooking was done on driftwood fires ... not my style, but what the main throng was doing...


In many places outside the US and western Europe this is almost the rule, not the exception. Thanks for the intelligent comments about LNT fires.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group