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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:53 am 
Alm wrote:
Another detail is that [Andrew] is using a car and doesn't carry the golf bag in the boat (and still it's a problem to tow the bag over sand or large pebbles, due to tiny wheels). He was considering adding shoulder straps to the bag for places where wheels won't work - at 63 lbs I would try and avoid carrying such a backpack at any cost, no kidding.

As I said in my previous reply, I'm no fan of the bag that comes with it. Just to be fair to the included bag... The wheels aren't tiny as far as luggage wheels go... They're the standard rollerblade style. Unlike an actual golf bag, it has a flexible bottom. This allows the whole thing to be rolled up and packed. This does take up storage space.

Alm wrote:
And, if not for daytrip use - sorry, guys, but there are better expedition boats out there, with rudder, deck rigging and hatches (some of them are lighter as well).

There are expedition boats with hatches and different deck rigging. I'm not sure which pictures you're referring to, but in some of the photos the assembly is in-progress. Regardless, I don't think the question of "better" is as easy to answer as you suggest (saying a rudder is better is a big subjective variable in that equation). It's kind of a philosophical issue between one boat to rule them all, or a specialized boat for every occasion. The advantage of the TRAK is that it's a professional generalist.

Capability and handling-wise, I'd pit the TRAK against the Khatsalano and K1 boats more than the Whisper or Kahuna. The latter are lighter (and a little shorter), but I don't think they're in the same class in the performance department.
Khatsalano ($5,510) Length 5.4m Weight 20.5 kg
TRAK T-1600 ($3,399) 4.88 m Weight 21.77 k
K1 Expedition ($5,510) Length - 5m Weight - 23.25 k


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:45 am 
Have just found this review:
http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/2009/07 ... addle.html

Andrew, how long have you been using the boat? Are there any noticeable wear and tear marks inside the hull (made by the frame tubes, foot pedals etc) or outside (rocks)?


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:26 pm 
Quote:
Have just found this review:
http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/2009/07 ... addle.html

Interesting that this time wheeled golf bag was "great". Probably depends on the terrain. After trying 4 or 5 kinds of carts and having build 2, I can't imagine wheels smaller than 10" or 25 cm being great. Again nothing about storing the bag in the boat.

Adi, - it is outside wear that should be watched for, not the inside one. Besides, Trak doesn't have a rudder, so wear due to "foot pedals" becomes kind of mute. With very few exceptions, kayak skin handles pebbles and sand well, and with care, and if not used in multiday trips with heavy loads, can survive several seasons without hull protection strips (which I'm not sure Trak has). Normally, people prefer having those strips even for benign conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:54 am 
I think whether one likes the bag or not depends on his preferences. From my point of view the bag is a wrong idea, it's too heavy and can't be stored inside the boat, but as I said, being a potential customer from the UK (and trying to purchase the boat legally rather than smuggle it from the US) I have almost £1000 ($1600? or so?) balance in my pocket, so am quite happy to buy a large and light bag with strips to carry the kayak, if necessary.
I thought that it would indicate poor quality of the fabrics if normal usage left marks, I'm sure the pressure between the hull and the frame tubes, for example, must be significant. FC uses reinforcements inside too.
Anyway, I have written to Trak regarding the additional strips. The response came very swiftly and in a very friendly manner. They say:
What we do with our hulls is a 3-layer weld along the keel chine….a butt weld, an inside strip and an outside strip (no gluing or adhesives, all heat welding technology). In some pretty extreme situations (including rocks and even some coral), we have only seen scratching and small creases, but not even into the second layer of material. Also, if you were to damage the hull, we would either repair or replace within the 5-year warranty period. Never say never, …but, ….we have not had any customers damage the skin to that degree, even with some extreme use.

Neat.


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:16 pm 
Quote:
I think whether one likes the bag or not depends on his preferences.

I would say - on intended uses. And here I see some incompatibility or limitations. Bag with wheels - good for daytrips with car, problem in daytrips with public transport. Semi-rigid bag - good for car or airplane, and impossible for when you have to carry it in the boat in multiday trip. Small wheels - easier to load in the car, a pain on anything but paved surface. Larger wheels (if not on a designated cart) - easier on rough terrain, and a pain when loading in the car.

Quote:
I have almost £1000 ($1600? or so?) balance in my pocket, so am quite happy to buy a large and light bag with strips to carry the kayak, if necessary.

2 things:
1) If Trak sells now in UK for less than $1600, it sounds like sale of discontinued item. Or may be sales are so low that they are trying to enter the market at loss.
2) Even with straps - people don't realize what 63 lbs feels like, when it's that long. The lower end is below your buttocks and the upper end is towering 2 ft above your shoulders. I had 2 boats with long heavy bags. At that weight this thing literally controls you - you lean carelessly to one side or forward, and it gains momentum trying to flip you over, and you grab tress and walls to stay upright.

Quote:
I thought that it would indicate poor quality of the fabrics if normal usage left marks, I'm sure the pressure between the hull and the frame tubes, for example, must be significant. FC uses reinforcements inside too.

Any use leaves marks on the outside of any boat fabric, the question is - how deep marks. Your current kayak is probably inflatable. Some things are impossible to explain until you experience it in person. The pressure on the fabric doesn't do much, it is the friction from the outside against frame members that can be dangerous. FC uses reinforcement inside for cushioning, - not for protection from the inside abrasion.

From what Trak wrote to you, it looks like they don't have hull protection strips, but instead there is more material along the keelsen made by overlapping layers of fabric. Somewhat hazy description, - they don't follow terminology commonly accepted in folders design.

I think I know now who this boat is made for - it is for people that like to play with adjustable rocker. No kidding.


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:32 pm 
Alm - Adrian isn't saying that the Trak costs $1600, he is saying that he can get a Trak for $1600 less than the Feathercraft he was previously looking at.

Also, if no manufacturers tried anything different, would there ever be any progress in design?


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:14 pm 
Quote:
Also, if no manufacturers tried anything different, would there ever be any progress in design?

Let them try, this is alright with me... After trying those boats that I had a chance to, I'll pass, for now ;-)...

Quote:
I'm not sure how boat setup time implies trip length.

If longer assembly fits the trip plan, then there are more boats to chose from. Short assembly time is usually the main attraction for urban dwellers with no storage room (I'm partially in this group, and partially not), but in case of Track some things they won't like - mostly weight and packed dimensions. Wrote about this already, don't want to dwell much on something that I didn't even see. Also, for those on calm rivers and small lakes, there boats like Citibot (forget about performance, it's too short and wide), much lighter, same short assembly time, and possibly cheap even in the UK or Australia. Just my 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:07 am 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:00 pm
Posts: 139
Andrew or Keith,

If you pack the three hydraulic jacks separately since they look small - perhaps with carry on luggage if the baggage checkers allowed - would the remaining weight of the TRAK including the bag be 50 pounds or less?

thanks for checking

Bernie

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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:12 am 
Well I can confirm that the bag does indeed fit inside the back.

I have just been to play with / paddle one.

Have to say I am very impressed with the design and build quality.


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:32 am 
6950rpm wrote:
Well I can confirm that the bag does indeed fit inside the back.

I have just been to play with / paddle one.

Were you able to carry one, with the bag in the back ;-) ?


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:23 am 
Alm wrote:
Were you able to carry one, with the bag in the back ;-) ?


Yes.

Now put 10 - 15kgs of kit in one and I would imagine carrying it would be more problematic. Same with any folder I guess including your Feathercraft. But that's ok as I will be buying the next kayak to paddle on the water rather than to parade round with on my shoulder as the latest must have accessory.


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:51 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 1225
Location: Anchorage Alaska
6950rpm wrote:
Alm wrote:
Were you able to carry one, with the bag in the back ;-) ?


Yes.

Now put 10 - 15kgs of kit in one and I would imagine carrying it would be more problematic. Same with any folder I guess including your Feathercraft. But that's ok as I will be buying the next kayak to paddle on the water rather than to parade round with on my shoulder as the latest must have accessory.

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Hey man, kayaks are chick magnets. They make a great shoulder accesory

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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:28 pm 
6950 rpm, don't get upset. Tsunamichuck is right, it's a chick magnet, the more, the better. Imagine how cool it already looks with 6 kg bag inside, - with another 15 kg of gear it will be totally irresistible.


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:35 am 
Yikes... I gotta sort out my email notifications. I missed out on some action!

adi2410355 wrote:
Andrew, how long have you been using the boat? Are there any noticeable wear and tear marks inside the hull (made by the frame tubes, foot pedals etc) or outside (rocks)?


I've been using the boat since last summer (August 2009?). There aren't any marks inside. The one thing I'd caution against is sand between the frame tubes and the skin. My routine is simply to wipe the boat out after I pull it out of the water. I'm not obsessive about this point, but it's something I keep in mind.

As far as the outside... I think I have one minor... minor... abrasion. I'm totally guilty of failing to check the tide and running some nasty submerged rocks down the length of the hull at full speed. It was a frenzied paddle back to check the damage the first time I did this. Then I was annoyed because I'd paddled back to the docks to find absolutely no damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Posting a review
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:37 am 
berniem wrote:
Andrew or Keith,

If you pack the three hydraulic jacks separately since they look small - perhaps with carry on luggage if the baggage checkers allowed - would the remaining weight of the TRAK including the bag be 50 pounds or less?

thanks for checking

Bernie


I don't have a scale, but I believe the jacks weigh 9 or 10 pounds total.


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