Folding Kayaks Forum

The user forum for FoldingKayaks.org
It is currently Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:26 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:04 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:15 pm
Posts: 50
Dear All,
I have been engaged on experiments with waterproofing canvas to evaluate methods for repairing ageing kayak skins such as that on my Tyne Double. All the test samples have been fixed to frames and immersed in buckets until failure. One is yet to fail. In addition I have just acquired a tin of chlorinated rubber for evaluation as this promises to perhaps be similar to some of the vintage kayak skins.
This post is however an appeal.
Would anyone in the U.K. have an expired skin that they would be prepared to let me use for experimentation with skin repairs. It would be cut into 600mm squares and would definitely not be any use as a kayak skin afterwards but it would hopefully further our understanding of the performance of repair compounds when applied to existing skins rather than pristine canvas samples.
Your help would be appreciated.
Yours sincerely,
Malcolm Tierney


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:31 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 430
Hi Malcolm,
Good to see you posting here. One person I can think of who might be a source for old discarded skins, or perhaps might know people getting rid of them is Simon Bolze the UK rep for Wayland kayak, as one of their main businesses is selling replacement skins for all the old folding kayaks. Presumably many of the people he sells skins to have an old one to get rid of. He is based somewhere near Reading and might be worth dropping a line to by way of enquiry.
http://www.waylandkayaks.co.uk/
(He has visited these forums on occasion, but I don't think he's a very regular poster. Oh, and I see on his webpage he looks to be expanding to carry kayaks other than Wayland.)
I'm very impressed by all the possible coatings you've found and extremely interested to hear how the results of these experiments.
All the best,
Ian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:06 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:15 pm
Posts: 50
Dear All,
The chlorinated rubber was subjected to a very brief test. Two coats were applied to the same medium weight canvas as all the other tests. After just eighteen hours the test sample had admitted water to a depth of eighteen millimetres. Given that this is supposed to be used to below the waterline this is to say the least disappointing.

Malcolm Tierney


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:18 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:15 pm
Posts: 50
Whilst it was the case that on the original test of Fabsil Gold the treatment was applied to a porous canvas (You could see pinholes through it when held up to the light) when used to re-proof a failed waterproof cotton canvas with a close weave the Fabsil has proved admirable.
I would also like to clarify that on test I stated that the polyurethane backed synthetic canvas had weeped. In fact it had not. A few drops of rainwater had fallen from the tarpaulin covering my test buckets. The sample was dried out with chopsticks and kitchen roll (just a few drips) and has continued to stay watertight.
The silicone repair has now been continuously immersed for seventeen days without a drop spilled.
There is another waterproofing treatment using nanotechnology called Ultra Ever Dry which appears to show staggering results in advertising videos but I suspect that there would be no means of effecting repairs to a tear in a skin so treated such are its repellent properties.
Malcolm Tierney


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:18 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:15 pm
Posts: 50
The waterproofed canvas which failed and was re-treated with Fabsil Gold failed again after thirteen days continuous submersion. This would seem acceptable for limeys but for those stateside going on some serious trips this may not do. I would suggest that after a weeks worth of submersion if the canvas were allowed to dry and re-treated then another 240 hours or so of immersion could be withstood; provided of course that there are no actual holes in the canvas.

Malcolm Tierney


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:28 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 430
Hi Malcolm,
13 days sounds pretty impressive to me. I stumbled across the EverDry in a news bulletin recently and thought of the potential folding canoeing applications. Good to see that you're ahead of me on this. Reading their bumph they mention canoes as a possible future use, with the implication that they're looking into it ...

Did you have any luck with Simon Bolze?
All the best,
Ian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:00 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:15 pm
Posts: 50
Dear Ian,
I have had a reply from Simon Bolze but no useful developments from that avenue yet.
It occured to me recently (as an occasional model maker) that powdered metal is sold as an admixture for resin castings. I have orderd a tin of aluminium powder in order to add to silicone sealant in order to obtain a match with the existing Tyne skins. I intend to add this to dilute silicone in order to evaluate whether silicone with added aluminium powder would:-

Produce a reasonable colour match

Maintain flexibility, integrity and water proofing sufficient for use on a folding kayak.


The existing canvas sample treated with silicone has now been continuously immersed for over three weeks with not a drop spilled. It seems that I may have been too kind to it by immersing it in the reputedly pure waters from the verdant Cray valley and it would seem that immersion of a second sample in briney water with added surfactants would be a sterner and more realistic test.
Watch this space.

I decided not to try Ultra Ever Dry because:

High price

Repellancy of all substances would mitigate repairs to tears.



As an aside, for those waterproofing cotton canvas hull skins on non folding kayaks does anyone have any recommendations for marine paints or otherwise for use below the water line. Anti fouling is not really necessary or desirable as our hulls are not left afloat for long enough and anti fouling needs to be re-applied annually.
I have contacted both Hempel and International but been met with no answers in the case of International and silence from Hempel. As I am asking about canvas they probably think I am a crank. (Maybe I am but I am unrepentent.)

anon.
Malcolm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:28 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Hi Malcolm,

Merry Christmas to all.

Thank you very much for posting your results so far.

There are a number of people building SoF (Skin-on-Frame) boats in the US. I would look to them for the coating recommendation you requested in your last post. The best-known may be Dave Gentry: http://gentrycustomboats.com/Infopage.html, but there are others: http://capefalconkayak.com/The%20modern%20skin%20on%20frame%20kayak.html, http://shop.skinboats.com/

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:56 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:15 pm
Posts: 50
Dear Chris,
thank you very much for the references to information for treating canvas skins. unfortunately by the time this was posted I was thoroughly in the thick of operations and gave the canvas of my new PBK20 two coats off Dulux Weathershield exterior gloss. Unfortunately I forgot to add terebene to the first coat and hell nearly froze over whilst I awaited its drying but terebene was added aplenty to the second.

I have returned to the skin treatment experiments.
The latest was the following mix:

100g acetoxy silicone
60g white spirit
25g aluminium filler powder

This was mixed and brush applied to a square of water porous medium weight canvas.
This sample shall be tested by the same method as all of the previous.
In appearance it is somewhat disappointing as at the time of writing whilst still wet it is rather a dark grey and not like the light aluminium of a Tyne boat that I was hoping to replicate. The aluminum filler powder was obtained from Alec Tiranti limited.
I shall investigate whether another powder gives a better match.
I shall also investigate metallic fabric paint followed by acetoxy silicone.


Malcolm Tierney


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:26 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Thank you again, Malcolm. Looking forward to hearing how that silicone mix holds up-- it sounds like you might actually be heading near a solution to the problem of restoring these old hulls, even if it won't be cosmetically perfect.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:30 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I wonder if the 333 stuff might work: http://sealants.sealantcentre.com/products/acetoxy-silicones

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:35 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:15 pm
Posts: 50
What is this 333 stuff of which you speak?
I have come closer to a repair today.
Today I acquired a can of Rust-O-Leum aerosol fabric paint in silver colour. this was very malodorously spray applied to a 600mm square of porous canvas. It looks the bee's knees. A coat of clear silicone should be the cherry on that cake and I am very hopeful to a good conclusion. Silicone shall be applied tomorrow (Friday) and testing commenced on Saturday along with the not so pretty aluminium silicone coating.
As an aside the aluminium powder is intended to be added to polyurethane or polyester castings and when polished gives the appearance of aluminium. If one has the skill to produce a master or pattern surely it makes sense to send one's pattern to a foundry and have it cast in aluminium or am I missing something although on a kayaking site this is an irrelevance. I am amused by the fact that this site is spellchecking my English spelling of aluminium.

Malcolm Tierney
(Not the deceased actor)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:33 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
And I am amused that you amused by the site's spellchecking of your spelling aluminum :wink: :D

The 333 was listed on that link-- designed for aquariums, to stay pliable.

But if Rustoleum works, so much the better. That stuff is, for the most part, extremely easy to come by, in the States!

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:13 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:15 pm
Posts: 50
Dear Chris,
Thank you, I was in too much haste. The link has now been followed. I would expect any clear acetoxy silicone to work. Aquarium, general purpose or sanitary.
I have used Dow Corning 781. I believe that Dow Corning is an American company (I could be mistaken) but as long as it is acetoxy silicone then I am sure you will be fine. The Rust-O-Leum fabric paint is only to achieve a colour match with the silver rubberised hulls of Tyne kayaks. The waterproofing is provided by the silicone which is currently creating a nose melting miasma in my kitchen as it sets.
P.S American spell checkers dislike colour too.
Centre
Harbour
Colour
So there!
(Just teasing)

Malcolm Tierney


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skin Repairs
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:14 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
You're making me break out in smiles. I find that American spell checkers do just fine with words like color... and Dow-Corning is most certainly an American company :D

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group