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 Post subject: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:44 pm 
Hi,
I would really like to know how many people can roll a folding kayak. I have a Nautiraid double and we tried (only once so far) to roll it -unsuccessfully. I know that the feathercraft can be rolled but I was wondering about some of the others.The problem with ours is that we dont have a thigh/knee brace. I am not sure if it would be possible to kind of make one or buy one that could be fitted onto the side of our kayak :?

I understand that the folding kayaks are generally more stable (esp. a double) but it would provide us with a bit more confidence if we could roll ours 8)
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:12 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1737
Location: Southeast Michigan
There are people out there who can roll a Klepper double- but the point of having a big, beamy boat is that rolling is not as necessary as it is with a skinny boat in arctic water. After all, Hannes Lindemann crossed the Atlantic in a Klepper double without having a good roll ;-)

More important, I think, is being able to wet exit and reenter- easier in a big stable boat like a double. Practice that.

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Michael Edelman
FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:30 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:30 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Stone Mountain, Ga. U.S.A.
You are right Mike, I am not good at rolling at all, especially in my Feathercraft Kahuna. I have tried. I even had a couple of instructors try my boat, one could and one couldn't. Both were experienced in rolling hardshells, but the Kahuna is a different animal to them.

I intend to give it a go again with my newly purchased K-1. I would feel a lot more confident if I could. I am ok knowing that my self recovery technics work well with these stable boats though.

Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:19 am 
I could do all the different rolls I know (front or back recovery, or brace roll) in the K1, or with just the hands alone, and think it's a pretty decent boat to try rolling even with the sponsons fully inflated. What I will advise is to get ample practice with rolling in small training boats first before trying it on foldables. My playboating experience allows me to roll in every boat I have tried so far, except for the Nautiraid Grand Raid (I got a gash on the knee trying to do the hipflick when I scrapped my skin off some protruding parts under the cockpit).

It is best not to rely on a lie-back recovery in training for rolls, as you can get away with a weaker hipflick action that way. Try to do handrolls (best with a forward recovery position) in shorter river boats, that'll really polish up your technique.


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:10 am 
happywolfie wrote:
What I will advise is to get ample practice with rolling in small training boats first before trying it on foldables.


That's good advice, happywolfie. I roll my Khats and my Kahuna, and they both require better technique and a stronger hip-flick than any hardshell I know. In fact if I roll a hardshell the way I roll the Kahuna, I'll end up capsizing on the other side, and with some force.

I learnt to roll in cigar-type river boats, and there was a time where I could roll any hardshell more or less reliably, but couldn't roll the Kahuna at all. Very frustrating. You have to slow the roll down and hip-flick much more strongly. I also started the hip-flick slightly earlier in the roll. Turns out these are good practises anyway - learning to roll a folder will give you a really solid roll.

kayakcamper wrote:
I even had a couple of instructors try my boat, one could and one couldn't. Both were experienced in rolling hardshells, but the Kahuna is a different animal to them.


Sounds screwy to me. The Kahuna is tricky for a novice to roll it's true, but anyone with a strong enough roll to teach should be able to roll it no problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:00 pm 
My experience. Four seasons rolling. I wanted a capsize recovery that was quick and flawless.

I could'nt learn in any of my folders I had at the time. Folbot Aleut or FC Kahuna.
Once I learned "the kayak roll" (DVD title of technique I learned) in a Prijon Seayak, I could roll both the
folders, but I had to set up with an exaggerated hooking of the knees under the decks,
they were not recoverys, merely tricks. Both the folders actually recovered very well to
primary stability once the hip snap motion was grooved in.

I got thigh brace bars for the Kahuna and I considered the roll a recovery after that. I did'nt have to
adjust my knees prior to the capsize. The Kahuna was (I sold it to my cous) a good roller.
The khats fit tight right away and I had a roll dialed in. I have been on and off hand rolling it, but I quit
paddling it for rolling games, and switched to more anthrodimensional SOF's.

This spring I built this, does not fold :? , which is comparative volume and dimensions to the Khats , it rolls well
and I hand roll it at will. I'm still developing greenland style rolls, it's fun, but I'd rather paddle.

Image

Here is cold water rolling and bracing on May 1st this year, with the SOF # 3 I have built.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p00Xx8hMGfU

Only video I have of rolling the Khatsolano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t4S1CZWgsw


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:43 pm 
Hey thanks for your message. On another subject. How does your Khatsalono compare with hardshells. Some reviews of the Khatsalono have said that the boat is unstable and you always tend to be leaning on one side. I did not know if the people who have reviewed this are used to only paddling more stable folding boats or if they were comparing it to a hardshell?


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:52 am 
With the sponsons down, the regular Khats is tippier than any hardshell I know. The tippiest hardshells I've paddled are the Greenlander Pro or the original version of the Nordkapp (the original version from the 70s - they made it more stable later). The Khats is way tippier than either of those. Even on flat water it's easy to capsize - to paddle it with any comfort a capsize has to be a trivial occurrence.

Yes, it tends to sit on one chine or the other when at rest, but once you start moving that goes away.

With the sponsons up, it's about as tippy as those boats I mentioned, maybe less so. Still less stable than most sea kayaks out there, but not extreme.


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:39 am 
Khatsolano (regular, sponsons deflated) is the tenderest boat I have ever paddled. Compared to hardshells I have paddled, I think the Khats is slow and hard to keep at speed. It hits the wall at a pretty low hull speed, IMO. I have never been able to keep the pace I can in a hardshell.

The old Kahuna is back in town, I rolled it the other day. My cousin put a rolling rib in it. It rolled better than I remember.


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:14 am 
Last week I took advantage of the summer weather, the nice water temperature and the sound advice Micheal left in this thread.
I had a lot of fun, first learning to leave the boat without capsizing it, than to re-enter it without immediately falling out again. Once I found a method it became quite easy, and I do feel much saver now, knowing that I can flip the boat back upright again from capsized position, and that I can re-enter a kayak and paddle it, even when it is half filled up with water.
But still, I do want to learn how to roll my kayak. Especially since that 3 year old kid, who was on one of the shores when I paddled along some Amsterdam canals, some weeks ago. He thought he recognized me, pointed at me and shouted: 'ESKIMO'.


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:09 pm 
One of the world's best Rollers, a guy named Dubside, paddles folding boats exclusively. He started out with a Kahuna, now paddles a modified Whisper, and has competed in the Greenland games in both. On the other hand, he can roll just about anything. Take a look at his website...I don't know the web address, but if you Google "Dubside", it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Regards,

Phil


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:15 pm 
Saludable99 wrote:
One of the world's best Rollers, a guy named Dubside, paddles folding boats exclusively. He started out with a Kahuna, now paddles a modified Whisper, and has competed in the Greenland games in both. On the other hand, he can roll just about anything. Take a look at his website...I don't know the web address, but if you Google "Dubside", it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Regards,

Phil


http://www.dubside.net/index.cfm


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:38 pm 
Saludable99 wrote:
One of the world's best Rollers, a guy named Dubside, paddles folding boats exclusively. He started out with a Kahuna, now paddles a modified Whisper, and has competed in the Greenland games in both. On the other hand, he can roll just about anything. Take a look at his website...I don't know the web address, but if you Google "Dubside", it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Regards,

Phil


Dubside is paddling a Sterling IceKap with a customized gelcoat these days. I took a rolling class with him last month. Two and a half hours with Dubside AND Maligiac, the 8 time Greenland champion. WOW! Maliqiac had me doing hand rolls and throwing stick rolls. In my Wisper of all things. I can now do hand rolls more easily than I can do a paddle roll. Very unexpected. The 'secret' is to allow yourself to totally relax like a rag doll in the water. Twist 90 degrees in the cockpit and lay on your back to the side of the kayak, then slowly roll the kayak up under yourself by lifting the downside knee and swing the body onto the back deck. Once I was able to relax and do it in slow motion it became reliable and almost effortless. There is no hip snap, instead it is a knee lift and steady layback up onto the back deck. No hip snap! :o


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling a folding
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:57 am 
mje wrote:
There are people out there who can roll a Klepper double- but the point of having a big, beamy boat is that rolling is not as necessary as it is with a skinny boat in arctic water. After all, Hannes Lindemann crossed the Atlantic in a Klepper double without having a good roll ;-)

More important, I think, is being able to wet exit and reenter- easier in a big stable boat like a double. Practice that.


All true, but as I have commented elsewhere on this forum, mastering a Klepper A2 roll (not that hard from the rear seat, using a good pawlata technique) is, in my experience, good for a laugh, and is also worth many free beers


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