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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Location: Iowa, US
I got my dry suits and everything (almost) so I went out to try rolling. I tried a few times but didn't make it and made a scene :oops: . Admittedly I am not a great roller. I could do it sometimes and haven't done for almost a year.

Though my moves maybe wrong I felt it different from hard-shells. A friend said my feet protruding out of of the bottom like a foot (he always exaggerates) when I was capsized. I couldn't feel where my feet, legs, hips were gripping. The last time I was half out of water and tried to scull a bit. I probably will get it if I do it 100 times but thought I better ask first.

Am I suppose to squeeze hard on the thigh braces? But they are thin and not too easy for my knees to locate them. What else should I do differently than in a hard-shell?

Another interesting thing different from hard-shells is that when I capsize I could reach out of the water and hold the boat to keep my head and part of upper body out of water. I don't remember I could do that with hard-shells. Probably I should reach higher.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:50 pm 
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I've never been able to roll, but when I had a Wisper, I found it easy enough to take a bow rescue from a buddy, which is, I suppose, a similar movement. (NB - calm water practice only!) I generally set the footrest so that, if I pushed my heels forward, I could just lock my knees straight. Knees relaxed and heels pulled back a little, I could tuck knees under the thigh braces okay. If you find the braces thin, have you tried sliding a bit of pipe insulation over them? I tried that once, for comfort, but my legs are fairly chunky, and it was too tight a fit. If you have slimmer legs, it would be worth a try.

Have you tried googling Dubside videos? He used a Wisper for his demo rolling boat. I think he might have taken out the rib behind the seat. That lets the back deck go lower, which makes it easier to lay-back. You can do the same trick more expensively by buying the special rolling rib from Feathercraft.

Sorry I can't be more help, but with luck you'll get other replies from people who can roll, which should be more helpful.

Mary

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:19 pm 
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I never had a good roll, but I was able to put my old K1 on its side and scull and recover from that position. You need to be solidly braced in the boat so it responds to your body moves.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Yes, my question is actually how to brace the folder. In a hard shell I don't need to think 'cause it's hard and I am braced.

Mary, I just watched some videos and they are helpful. I'll try something next time. If it still not working I may buy a DVD or some. Dubside teaches a lot of advanced Greenland rolls (for competition or fun) that I may not need right now but Greenland rolls seem relaxed and easy. Mary, it's not too late to learn for yourself! There was a retired woman when I was learning to roll (white water) a few years ago and she learned pretty quick.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:49 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:03 am
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Location: Arizona, USA
This website http://www.seawolfkayak.com/skin-on-frame-kayak supplies summary information on SOF kayaks, including a simple contrast that could go easily unnoticed, unless you're alerted to it.

Look through the section titled : Native kayak types famous in history

About the Inuit in Greenland kayaks, the author notes

"... Roll or die."

However, following that - under the Sub-Sub-Heading : Aleut baidarkas - author Kiliii said :

"There is some controversy over whether the Aleut [did] or did not have the ability to roll their kayaks. What is known, however, is that Aleut kayaks were designed to carry a significant amount of cargo (seals butchered on land) and were often paddled with ballast to offset their tippiness when unloaded."

So it seems reasonable to me for you to simply tell people that your outlook follows more closely that of the Aleut practice - no rolling 8)

Of course, you'll have to explain away the more Greenland profile folder you paddle.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:13 am 
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Filbert wrote:
Mary, it's not too late to learn for yourself! There was a retired woman when I was learning to roll (white water) a few years ago and she learned pretty quick.

Thanks for the thought, Filbert, but I've given up on the idea. I did pool courses 3 or 4 times, but never got the knack. With me moving and the paddle moving, I guess my spatial awareness is too poor to keep the paddle in the right place, and I would always end up slicing it under the water. Taking a bow rescue, the assisting kayak is "fixed," so I can orientate myself with that.

I'm without a boat at the moment, but I've pretty much decided that (after retiring/ moving next year) my next one will probably be a Hobie sit-on-top, maybe one of their inflatables. It makes re-entry so much simpler. (And, considering their inflatables have a 36" beam, less likely to be needed! Although that gets us into the different subject of primary stability vs secondary stability.)

Good luck with your rolling,

Mary

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:32 am 
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Location: Coastal New Jersey
Filbert, Here in New Jersey there seems to be two kinds of kayakers: those who spend all of their on-water time paddling and those who spend most of their time doing recreational rolling. Some of the rec rollers actually resist distance paddling, prefering to paddle a few hundred yards offshore where they practice their repertoir of rolls. After 20 years of paddling, my own roll, a simple C to C otherwise known as a "thrash and flail", is so unreliable that I don't have the slightest bit of confidence that it would work in the sort of conditions that would cause me to go over. On the other hand, I have mastered a reflexive brace and that has saved my bacon on more than one occasion. I also carry a paddle float on my rear deck and do practice self rescues with it from time to time. I also use it when landing on a stoney beach where the float allows me to exit the cockpit in deeper water and wade in to shore thus minimizing scratches to the bottom of the boat.

Mary, A friend of mine 'peddles' a Hobie peddle boat and it is a marvelous piece of engineering and quite fast but the wide Hobies would not be much fun to actually paddle, especially after owning a Wisper.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:42 am 
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Jake wrote:
Mary, A friend of mine 'peddles' a Hobie peddle boat and it is a marvelous piece of engineering and quite fast but the wide Hobies would not be much fun to actually paddle, especially after owning a Wisper.


Yes, the Hobie inflatables are not speed merchants, but for gently pottering along a coastline to look at rock formations and watch birds, might be quite suitable. I'm wary of taking on a hardshell which I'd have to car-top. (Don't even have a car yet - another project for next year.) That's why I'm looking at the inflatables. If I solve the transport problem, the Hobie Revo 11 is a more streamlined plastic boat which would suit my size and intended use.

Mary

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Mary, inflatables look really comfortable and easy to use, take a look at the link below. I had an impulse to buy this inflatable under the frustration that I got from my folder. The site has great reviews of many inflatables. The other good choice to me is Innova Sunny.

http://www.inflatablekayakworld.com/rev ... ble-kayak/

Speaking of rolling, I think you could learn C2C first which separates sweep and hip snap. Ken Whiting's videos are very good on Youtube's seakayakingtv channel. Anyway, enjoy.

Jake, my initial and main goal is to be able to do long distance paddling on exposed water. Therefore I want to have a reliable roll so I can be comfortable on any kind of water my boat is capable of. Sometimes I do think why I bother. Rolling is all about timing and body positions and I feel how exactly I do a hip snap is more critical in a folder.

I bought a Pakpod from Pakboats which servers as a deck bag and paddle float. I tried it but failed to climb back. I need to practice that too. It's a mess when everything is new.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:14 pm 
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kenton wrote:

Of course, you'll have to explain away the more Greenland profile folder you paddle.


Kenton, exactly, those local kayak fishers will laugh at me.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am
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Location: Coastal New Jersey
Filbert, you are right about wanting to develop a "reliable roll". It's just that, sometimes,thinking you have a reliable roll can get you into trouble. When conditions are severe enough to cause a capsize and assuming that you can roll back up, the conditions will still be severe enough to cause another capsize. There is a story about the late Eric Soares, founder of the legendary Tsunami Rangers, paddling a Derick Hutchinson Icefloe in rough conditions on San Francisco Bay many years ago. He capsized and rolled up several times and became exhausted but managed to survive the situation, though just barely. It was that experience that brought him to develop the extreme rough water sit-on-top, the Scramjet, that became synonomous with the Rangers. The point is that some kayakers get themselves into trouble because they think that their skill level is higher than it, in fact, is.
Enjoy your Wisper, it's a lovely boat :D

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:29 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:24 pm
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Location: Ottawa
Hi All,

First post, but I've been a lurker here since I bought my first sea kayak, a Wisper. a few years back, and have since bought a hardshell as well. I've been an avid whitewater kayaker for close to 20 years, so rolling was very natural to me when I made the transition to sea kayaks, however I did have to relearn a few things and modify my technique somewhat. I've since become totally hooked on greenland style rolling, which has opened up a whole new world and has given me an appreciation of a spectrum of rolling styles.

For rolling the Wisper, there are a few things I might suggest. The thigh brace bars can be padded with regular 3/4" foam pipe insulation. I wrapped mine first with what they call "Magic Wrap", a stretchy rubberized tape you can buy at any hardware store. A few turns of it prevents the pipe insulation from spinning around when your knees contact it. The whole thing can be wrapped in Duck® Brand tape, which is more durable and waterproof than regular silver "duct" tape. You could even shape the foam to have a bit more of a hook if you wish. I don't find that necessary, but adding the insulation by itself helps immensely.


The second thing is of course the lowered rolling rib offered by Feathercraft. This is pretty much a necessity for doing the layback greenland rolls. The stock rib behind the seat is quite high and intrusive and quite possibly why you were having some difficulties rolling. In any of the classic demonstrations of Dubside rolling the Wisper, I understand that he's using the rolling rib or his version of one (or has simply removed it entirely).

There are a few annoyances with the rolling rib - it's difficult to lock into all the longerons, there's quite a bit of tension created trying to reshape the stern to fit the lower rib profile (11" vs 7.75"). They do provide straps to help, though I made a couple of extra of the velcroed straps which helped further. Unfortunately, the nice keel profile of the boat also gets deformed with the rolling rib in place. You can see this if you look closely at the Dubside videos when the boat is upside down. But, all said and done, it does make layback rolling the Wisper a lot easier if that is your goal.


You could also play with the rocker profile, by extending the keel and/or chine bars a button notch or two. I don't have a definitive feeling that that might make rolling the boat easier, but it might with the shortened waterline. Similarly you could try deflating the sponsons a bit, which might make the boat respond as if it's narrower.

...I'll have to continue this in the next post...
Your message contains 4605 characters. The maximum number of allowed characters is 3800.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:31 am 
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...continued from above...

Hip pads. Two thoughts to this. I've got the FC hip-fit-kit, I don't find them great. They're more like "cheek" pads since they sit so low. One could likely make custom ones out of minicell that would actually fit over the hips, as in a whitewater boat design. That said, there is a school of thought that suggests you are better to be somewhat loose in your seat so you can twist sideways a bit, though this applies more to the greenland style, such as in achieving a good balance brace.


Finally, I'd really recommend practicing rolling with a greenland "stick". It's certainly not required, but I found it helped me a lot in learning how to transition from my ingrained whitewater roll to an efficient sea kayak roll. In a whitewater boat you just basically power up, C to C or sweep stroke and strong hip snap. I found that a sea kayak roll is a lot slooowwweerrr... You can't rush it, but proper technique is necessary.


Rolling with a GP is more dependant on body position and rotation than on applying force to the paddle to roll up. You learn to separate yourself from having a deathgrip on the boat with your feet and knees, and only applying pressure and hip snap when it's needed. Once you get used to the required movements that a greenland paddle roll necessitates, you can go back to a Euro paddle and apply the same ideas. Don't force it, don't power it, finesse it.

I'm only theorizing here, but that might be even more applicable in a flexible folder, where some of the righting forces from a "power" roll would be lost since you don't have the same rigid connection at feet/knees/hips as in a hardshell.



BTW, you mentioned about being able to twist in the Wisper to come up for air. That's great, it's called the Petrussen Maneuver and something many kayakers would love to be able to do :D

http://www.qajaqusa.org/QK/petrussen_ma ... euver.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcFGLoPoqV8


Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers,
John


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:06 am 
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John, thank you for your advice. I'm still working on this.

The problem is the cockpit is too big for me so when I capsize I tend to fall out of the boat. I got some foam pipe stuff and am still trying to best fit them on the thigh braces. Another option I can think of is to have a board somehow fit on the two gunwale bars. It then will hold my legs like a Greenland kayak will do. This way I don't need the thigh braces and therefore the #4 rib. I don't know how to do it yet and otherwise if I don't install #4 rib I would lose the thigh braces too. I did try lay back roll. I think I could do it if the back rib was not so high.

I bought a few DVDs. "This is the roll" is the best rolling instruction. I got a Greenland paddle from Northern Lights (highly recommend to everyone). I figure next time when I capsize again I will pause a second and grip the braces well first before I set up. Anyway, roll is not supposed to be so hard.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
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Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
I finally managed to develop a 100% reliable roll in my Narak with a greenland paddle on Sunday, albeit on only one side so far and in calm conditions, after being inspired by Chris's excellent site http://qajaqrolls.com to try again. I remembered Brian Schulz telling me to get my side scull off pat first, something i'd never really worked on, and this and Chris's video on side sculling made a huge difference, particularly in terms of arching my back, keeping my chin up and head back, really pushing the kayak up with my knee and keeping my shoulders nearly parallel to water surface by twisting my hips and torso as much as possible. Once I'd practised this, first in 6 inches then 6 feet of water, a semi layback roll came really easily with much less effort than before (the back of the Narak cockpit is too high for a true layback roll, at least for me)
Needless to say I've discovered how unfit I am in the process - the muscles on the front of my neck and between my shoulder blades have only just stopped aching 2 days later...
The other thing that helped was the fact that a while back I'd lowered the anchor points on the straps that hold the back of the padded thigh brace tubes in place, which means my knees are now much more firmly locked into the kayak and my hips no longer roll to one side of the huge Narak cockpit during a roll (I found the inflatable hip pads useless as they are too low in my opinion)

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Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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