ADHESIVES and EVALOY

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john allsop
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ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by john allsop »

The question on COOPER quality is getting so long and away from the original question. The problem of finding an adhesive to repair EVALOY should have been solved by Folbot before using this material, now the company must , if they are not already , be in contact with their supplier on what adhesive can be used in the field as this is of the utmost urgency. Years ago i used to go down ontario rivers in my aerius and received gouges and on two occasions holes, for the holes i patched them on the side of the river and patched the gouges when i got home. If anyone is on a river trip with a hull made of EVALOY and they puncture their hull or worse what can they do as they maybe many miles from help. White Gorrila tape might make a temporary repair but as i don,t have any EVALOY i can,t check. But later a more permanant repair needs to be done.

paddlesheep
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by paddlesheep »

Straight from Folbot, these are the instructions I received with my Elvaloy patch kit. People can judge for themselves how easy it seems to follow:

Elvaloy Hull Repair Procedures

1. Move kayak to environment with humidity less than 70%; no direct sunlight
2. Prep: Gather rags, glue brush, solvent - MEK (methyl ethyl ketone), and adhesive. Clean surface. Cut patch with an extra 1/2 inch to 1 inch of the size of your hole
3. Scrub both sides (boat and patch) with MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) on a rag to clean surface. Wait five minutes. Repeat two more times.
4. Apply thin glue layer to both sides. Aggressively work it in with brush.
5. Wait five minutes or longer if glue still looks wet.
6. Repeat steps 4 & 5 (total of 3 layers with with five minute open time between)
7. Wait 10 minutes after third layer of glue.
8. Join the surfaces during the next 10 minutes. If over 10 minutes or if glue has spots of white haze the glue has picked up moisture and you should try to "reactivate" it. With a clean rag wet the glue surface with MEK but do not rub the glue off (one quick swipe)
9. Assemble immediately. Press hard. Wipe off excess glue with solvent.
10. Wait at least 48 hours before use or removal from the climate controlled space. The adhesive bond will continue to strengthen for the next week.

I would add that if you are using MEK do it in a well ventilated environment and use gloves and a respirator.

paddlesheep
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by paddlesheep »

My experience with field repairs and elvaloy is this. Gorilla tape will stick and could work as a temporary fix but the skin must be clean and dry. I had success with it on my first hole, it stuck fine and stayed there but the boat had never touched water at that point. In the field when I tried it it didn't stick nearly as well.

Tear Aid type B (the pvc kind) will stick fairly well and is probably the best option to fix a tear or hole in the field. Again the surface must be clean and completely dry. Alcohol wipes help. I don't find it adheres as well as Type A, the patches can be pulled off later with not a lot of effort.

Regular duct tape didn't still nearly as well as Gorilla tape, even on a clean and dry hull.

Aqua seal just peels right off the elvaloy easily in the test I did (but I didn't sand the surfaces first, maybe that might help).

I'm not sure how the seams are glued. They appear to be joined, fabric side to fabric side, there's about a 1-2 cm strip of uncoated material where the seams are joined. How do I know this? Because the bow seam on my Cooper has split apart so that's another repair I'll need to make. Maybe a more traditional glue will fix that though, we'll see. eta: from the folbot site it looks like the seams are RF welded instead of glued? ata: again. I was wrong, the seams are welded, what had happened isn't that the weld failed but the coating delaminated from the backing fabric. I'm pretty sure I can fix this by gluing a hull strip.

When I initially inquired about how to patch the hull I was told that the only thing that worked was a three part epoxy that costs $100 a pint. A short time later they got in touch and said they'd sourced a different adhesive that came in a smaller tube. It's from France (from Zodiac marine) and is the same stuff you see in the patch kit of Folbot's site.

Apathizer
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by Apathizer »

paddlesheep wrote:Straight from Folbot, these are the instructions I received with my Elvaloy patch kit. People can judge for themselves how easy it seems to follow:

Elvaloy Hull Repair Procedures

1. Move kayak to environment with humidity less than 70%; no direct sunlight
2. Prep: Gather rags, glue brush, solvent - MEK (methyl ethyl ketone), and adhesive. Clean surface. Cut patch with an extra 1/2 inch to 1 inch of the size of your hole
3. Scrub both sides (boat and patch) with MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) on a rag to clean surface. Wait five minutes. Repeat two more times.
4. Apply thin glue layer to both sides. Aggressively work it in with brush.
5. Wait five minutes or longer if glue still looks wet.
6. Repeat steps 4 & 5 (total of 3 layers with with five minute open time between)
7. Wait 10 minutes after third layer of glue.
8. Join the surfaces during the next 10 minutes. If over 10 minutes or if glue has spots of white haze the glue has picked up moisture and you should try to "reactivate" it. With a clean rag wet the glue surface with MEK but do not rub the glue off (one quick swipe)
9. Assemble immediately. Press hard. Wipe off excess glue with solvent.
10. Wait at least 48 hours before use or removal from the climate controlled space. The adhesive bond will continue to strengthen for the next week.
I would add that if you are using MEK do it in a well ventilated environment and use gloves and a respirator.
Wow, that's highly involved :? It's like you practically have to rebuild part of the boat. If I were a prospective Cooper buyer that would give me serious pause about getting one. That's an awful lot of work just to patch the hull.
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Jake
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by Jake »

This not only looks complicated but might even be bad for your health. And then there's the need for climate control which makes the job even more complicated. I think I'd take a pass on anything Elvaloy.

paddlesheep
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by paddlesheep »

It seems like an old school kind of patching procedure. I know that the cement I got with my older Innovas had a similar procedure (but instructions to sand the surfaces first). Then they started putting aquaseal in the repair kits, which seems to work just as well on their nitrylon fabric.

The procedure looks very similar to the pvc repair instructions here:

http://www.allinflatables.com/support/pvc.html

When I get a chance I'm going to try HH-66 on some pieces. Folbot gave me a few pieces of elvaloy I can experiment with.

Apathizer
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by Apathizer »

It really seems like Folbot might have made a major blunder in selecting Evaloy for the new hull material: It's just ridiculous to have to go through all that just to patch the hull.

I'm thinking about getting a Kodiak: It's a bit heavier than I'd like, but I want something rigid and durable with enough space for longer trips and I'm willing to lose a little bit of speed (though supposedly it's still pretty fast).

I think I'll keep an eye out for a used Kodiak with the Hypalon hull. In retrospect I was I would've originally bought a Kodiak instead of the Cooper. Oh well, live and learn...

john allsop
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by john allsop »

To say Folbot made a major blunder using EVALOY for their hulls is putting it mildly. They are just lucky that most people who buy their boats won,t see the potential problems that they will have eventually in time, when some wear has occured to their craft. A hull material that is difficult to repair by the owner could be a sales nightmare. It,s pretty obvious that cost was a major concern but for a craft that should last many years the actual cost goes out of the window unless it is intended as a "throw away item". One of my Klepper hulls seems to be patches and keel strips held to-gether with some hyperlon, but it is from the 1960.s and still going strong, the replacment hull i bought a few years ago is still unused. Folbot should of course stop using EVALOY before it "back fires on them" and make some compensation to all the people who have bought a craft with this hull material. One of the easy adhesives i use is by ZODIAK, it comes in decent size tubes, but it is intended for HYPERLON so it probably wont work on EVALOY. (it,s almost as good as the two part adhesive at least one Klepper dealer in CANADA sells).Here is a photo. It says Neopren but it does work on Hyperlon.
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Tak

Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by Tak »

While researching this repair adhesive subject, I found this very useful video using MEK and polyurethane. Sounds similar to the process paddlesheep described.

More complicated than composite repairs, but less messy too.

BradT

Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by BradT »

I agree - Folbot did not think this through. There is little doubt that Elvaloy is a robust material, however ease of repair in the field is critical and it seems to be failing that test. Folbot would not tell me the source of the Elvaloy (which is really strange - kind of like Colonel Sanders secret recipe of 11 different herbs and spices). But I think it must be the XR Mariner stuff by Seamen (they seem to be the only distributor of Elvaloy that I can find) Seamans claims there are glues that work well on Elvaloy, but stopped talking to me once I told them what was up. Weird.

Folbot wants $700 - yes you read that right - $700 - to put a single keel strip on the Elvaloy hull of a Cooper. That does not include the chines, which are essential to cover with strips, in my view. An entire new hull is around $900. They will sell you enough glue for the complete job and the Elvaloy strips for $171, which is a fair deal, in my view.

As regulars will know, I am a pretty big Folbot supporter. I've got two. I love the boats and the company has been almost ridiculously great. But they dropped the ball with the Elvaloy fabric. A bad idea.

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flatwater
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by flatwater »

Folbot has an official Elvaloy patch kit for large "holes" - described by paddlesheep.
They also recommend (and sell) TearAid-B for small patches.
http://store.folbot.com/product_p/elval ... ir-kit.htm
Obviously you can get the same stuff elswhere.

In Folbot's defense, they got caught short by DuPont when the switch was made. It happended as Folbot was being sold to a new owner right about this time in 2012. It appears DuPont didn't emphasize to new "customers" that it was much harder to patch than Hypalon. They published lots of data on how much tougher it was.

So far I haven't heard much more about patching issues yet. We'll see as time goes on.
Last edited by flatwater on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Five Folbots - Super TSF, two GIIs, Kodiak, Gremlin

Apathizer
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by Apathizer »

It seems like Folbot no longer as the instructions for the Evaloy repair kit available. There's a link on the web-site, but followed the info is no longer available. I wonder why... :roll:

The more I look at how Folbot does business the more cynical I am of them. At least in the case of the Cooper, it just seems like it requires too many owner mods and upgrades: seam-sealant, additional velcro straps, seat upgrade, hull strips, etc. By the time you do all this you're looking at about $2K in addition to your own labor. The difficulty repairing Evaloy further complicates matters.
Pakboats Quest 155.

'I actually read the Bible quite frequently. Can I tell you why? I stay in a lot of hotels. And I like to scare my kids before bed.' Jon Stewart

berniem
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by berniem »

How did you arrive at 2K - those add ons are no where near that amount. Also - many of these items are not really needed - folbot just provides them for those want them.

BernieM
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Apathizer
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Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by Apathizer »

No where near $2K? The boat itself now costs $1800, which is almost $2K in and of itself. The seat upgrad is also absolutely necessary unless you're only going to paddle for 15 minutes at a time. The stock seat is terrible. The seam-sealant is absolutely necessary as well: without it both the zippers and the deck seam will leak.

Additional velcro straps are optional, but definetly a good idea. And at $2.50 each they're kind of a rip-off. If you consider the base cost of $1800 in addition to the seat upgrade, seam-sealant, and additional velcro it about $1900, plus the additional labor. That's almost $2K.

kellstr

Re: ADHESIVES and EVALOY

Post by kellstr »

The link to the patch kit is working again.

I have a 3 year old Cooper and have had one issue with it. The zipper was not closing properly. The problem occurred in the warrantee period. I shipped the skin to folbot and it was returned within 3 weeks and I have had no problems since. And I must be made of sterner stuff, I use the stock seat for 4 hour paddles. :wink:

I don't know anything about the new owner. I don't have a boat with the elvaloy skin. I can just say I am very happy with the boat I purchased and the company was very attentive when I had a problem.

Kelly

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